doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Argentina Super High Volume Shooting

Every time I read a thread about Argentina bird shooting and the shotguns used, I'm reminded of story:
In Argentina, Remington 1100s are known as Remington 1099s because they always have one broken part.

The 1100 gets some undeserved bad press. Remington QC isn't what it used to be, but the design is elegant, serviceable, and inexpensive.

Dirty shells will bring one to a stop in 200 rounds though so be prepared to clean frequently. Just keeping the exterior of the magazine tube clean will keep it shooting. In fairness, I've seen a B-391 disabled by less than 25 rounds of early Estate shells so gas is dirty and the cleaner the shells the better. Load your 20 ga with 20/28 and it will survive a long day without any cleaning.

If you can't get clean shells where you will be going, don't bring a gas auto.

Bring spares, like maybe a complete bolt assembly and an extra firing pin and spring.

Best to clean before things start breaking. Field strip, blast with Rem oil, wipe clean, and start shooting again. I'd bet that an 1100 cleaned once an hour (takes five minutes) would do just fine on one of these high volume shoots.

The key is understanding your equipment and using it intelligently. Shoot to destruction and then complain is poor technique.

I got tickled at the way the bird boys counted "kills". The ones I saw used a hand counter for the first box or two and then I never saw it again for the balance of the trip. These guys are in it for a nice tip and do everything possible to make the yankee happy and get him all puffed up with pride--works like a charm. The way they figured it, everybody shot 80% or so and all they had to do at the end of the day was count the number of empty boxes. My bird boy gave me some incredible percentage and I know with that little borrowed 28 gauge Beretta I wasn't even half close to his "count". (He did get a very generous tip--come on, even I sucker for an ego rubbing like that!)

Joe, I agree that bird counts and dead bird percentages are bogus once you get south of the border. I would rather go for the gold on high birds and see if my shooting companions notice. Any good shotgun person should give credit to a good shot in his company. That credit is worth more to me than the "1000 Club" membership on the clubhouse wall.

IMO in guns for SA, break action gun are better, as they don't suffer as much as autos from dirty cartridges.
They stop ejecting, but still work
I would use a current production gun, Argentina is no place for vintage guns.
I've used Berettas and Perazzi, both without problems.
Berettas are great, as most lodges have spares and knowledge to do some repair on them if needed.
I use a chamber brush in the field if cartridges are too dirty.

Thanks for that suggestion, Shotgunjones. I will definitely have some spares when I go back.

One other observation I have noted while shooting down there with some twenty-odd different shooters on the two trips. This will rile some I know, but hey, here it is anyway. On the first trip all the other guys were shooting semi-automatics which, by the way, are recommended by the "experts" for recoil reduction. Every one of those guys except one had severe bruising on their shoulders from the shooting. I never did with the O/U. Next trip everyone else in a group of seventeen started out shooting automatics. All were complaining after the first day of sore shoulders. One friend had taken his Kreighoff 20 gauge and switched to it. His recoil issues went away. My take on it. I watched many of them shoot their guns in an effort to understand the problem. Most mount their guns with their bodies not square enough to the axis of the gun. The angle of butt to shoulder induces a sliding movement in recoil which accentuates pain and bruising. The moving parts in the gun seem to exxagerate this gun movement as well. Though the improper mount is a big part of the problem I really believe that the slamming of the breech bolt increases the liklihood of the gun moving out of position on the shoulder.It always moves further out toward the arm, causing some drastic bruising.

It is absolutely unnecessary to take anything more than a 20 gauge and use anything more than 7/8 oz. loads for 99% of the shooting I have encountered there. I have only had one stand where I was faced with very high birds. The bird boy was anticipating this and brought a few boxes of 1 oz. loads. I tried them, saw that the extra 1/8 oz. was unnecessary even on the very high birds, and went back to the 7/8 oz. with just a bit more choke.

These are just my observations and carry no more weight than anyone elses' who has been there.

Stan

If I were to use a Krieghoff for high volume shooting, I think I would install a weaker top lever spring. A Perazzi has a much friendlier top lever operation. If I had to build the ideal gun for high volume shooting, it would be an assisted opening gun that also closes easily and smoothly. The two that come to mind are the Model 21 and the 680 series Beretta. Whatever the choice, I would install the JS Air Cushion stock or another recoil absorbing stock with the butt and comb in one piece.

I've never shot K guns much, using a Perazzi to compete and the 687 for doves, so never noticed the heavy top lever spring you speak of.

One interesting note for first time planners to Cordoba. The weight of the gun is a two edged sword. A heavy gun will certainly moderate recoil, but will kill your arm muscles lifting it thousands of times a day, according to some I've shot with. Conversely, a light gun will not bother you mounting all day but will pound you more. Personally, the weight of the 30" 687 20 gauge is just right for me. I've never had any recoil issues nor had any fatigue at lifting it at the end of the day. I do use a Kick-Killer leather lace on pad, for lengthening the pull by 1/2", but it has the added benefit of spreading the recoil area of the butt over a larger area than the factory recoil pad.

The reason I said none is this:

Going to SA for high volume is a pastime in Houston. I have a great many clients that go on a consistant basis. So they have taken or used just about ever gun you can think of. At one time or another many have had problems. Some super expensive guns and others not so. Most are o/u or sbs.

The most common problem is broken ejectors.
Certain guns , springs. IE: hammer or top lever springs
I have had one guy shear off a forearm screw.
Cracked forearms on O/U

Best


John Boyd

Could not agree more !
In theory, a heavy 12 gauge clays gun with 24gr shells would be the best choice, but only a weigh lifter could mount and swing it thousands of times for several days in a row.

As far as bruising, some things help: Layers are good, a couple of t-shirts and a vest, or/and a recoil reducer will help a lot.
I've seen a few ugly examples, most of them related to poor gun mount and not having proper protection.
A lot of people with gun mounting issues are only aware of it when shooting the kind of volume that SA has, as "normal" shooting back home in one season is only a fraction of what they experience in a few days in Argentina