March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
6 members (NCTarheel, Marc Ret, Lloyd3, Ted Schefelbein, 2 invisible), 338 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,003
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
I just completed the measurements on my drilling's chamber cast. Would one of you that knows the measurements of 8x58 Sauer and the other rare drilling cartridges please look at the measurements taken and advise me to what I own?

The last picture in the drilling series is the measured drawing of the cartridge.

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Interesting how close I got by eyeballing the chamber and using a caliper before the casting.

The cartridge's rim is .500" (actually it is .510 on the casting)

The base of the cartidge after the rim is about .434" wide. (actually it is .438)

5/8" into the chamber, the cartridge is about .415" wide. (it is indeed .415")

At 2.3" into the chamber, there is a constriction that is either a really tiny shoulder or it is the lams, I can't tell. (actually 2.285)

The bore at muzzle is measuring .316 to .325 depending how I measure but this is a fuzzy number. (bore past chamber is actually .323)

Considering how hard it was to make a simple chamber cast, I don't think I'll try that again. Basic measurements with a caliper seemed close enough.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 8
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 8
Yes this certainly seems a 8x58R Sauer chamber (IMHO of course; I can't locate my pertinent books right now).
As for the chamber cast, I just melt the nearest old candle and put the cast to fridge overnight. Works nicely for this purpose and I too find cerrosafe metal casting unneeded. And BTW I do use shooting glasses when melting and pouring wax.
With kind regards,
Jani

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
So here we are at a fairly scandalous question:

This cartridge is going to be a nightmare to allocate and therefore this gun is not going to be any fun at all to shoot.

I just ran the measurements and it looks like the chamber could be recut to 8x57JRS. The barrel is about .323 so the .324 bullets should go through without a problem. The proof marks on the gun are close enough that I'm not certain it would even "knock it out of proof". The era of the gun was correct for 8x57. The measurements of the barrel are right to accept 8x57. Guns like this most commonly had 8x57. And the only proof I have right now on the gun that alludes to cartridge beyond 8mm is a 58, which could easily have been the chamber length of an 8x57 JRS.

What do you think? Unfortunately, not much rifling left so the best I can hope for is minute-of-boar accuracy at 50 yards.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 8
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 8
8x58R sauer cases are not that hard to get so you can load yourself or have it loaded by a custom loader.
If you can get a gunsmith to rechamber to 8x57JRS be aware that this powerful cartridge operates at much higher pressures and the conversion would certainly require reproof.
Old drillings with seemingly allmost no rifling left can sometimes surprise us so presume nothing and rather do a test firing (before any conversion).
With kind regards,
Jani

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Originally Posted By: Rookhawk


I just ran the measurements and it looks like the chamber could be recut to 8x57JRS. The barrel is about .323 so the .324 bullets should go through without a problem. The proof marks on the gun are close enough that I'm not certain it would even "knock it out of proof". The era of the gun was correct for 8x57. The measurements of the barrel are right to accept 8x57. Guns like this most commonly had 8x57. And the only proof I have right now on the gun that alludes to cartridge beyond 8mm is a 58, which could easily have been the chamber length of an 8x57 JRS.


I think it should be left as original unless the bore is spent, which may lead to a reline, etc. If the bore is rough, jacketed bullets might bridge the gap. 8x58 Sauer(or 8x58 Collath) is what the chamber is and is an interesting round. Fresh ammo may not be available but you could either use 360 BPE or maybe even 38-55 and convert it to 8x58 Sauer.

To answer one of your previous questions, the longarm was made in the Zella Sankt Blasii/Mehlis region and proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
The retailer of this drilling was not an unknown gunmaker in the east, but Carl Leberecht (1848-1933) in Amberg, Bavaria, or his son Karl Leberecht jr. The gun was proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse, evidenced by the ledger number 511. Suhl never used such ledger numbers. So it was most likely made there, and not by one of the better known Suhl makers.The leberechts held patents for an automatic safety and a 1913 one for a barrel selector on a drilling. The C.Leberecht shop in Amberg existed u ntil a few years ago, when the last Leberecht was slain by a robber.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Nice intrepretation and find Axel E. I bet it took you a bit to pull that rabbit out of the hat. I don't know that anyone stated that the firearms merchant was unknown, but that the name and location was unreadable for the moment. The fact that the slots were cut may indicate that after a firearms merchant received their funds and the business transaction complete, they really didn't care if their name remained on the longarm. They would just move on to the next one. Now I know that some firearms merchants offered a warranty, but I don't know if all did. Who would have thought that 100 years later that the marks would be so scruntinized.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Originally Posted By: kuduae
So it was most likely made there, and not by one of the better known Suhl makers.


Axel E.:

Can we get a clarification on the "there" location: Suhl or Zella-Mehlis? Did you mean Z-M instead of Suhl or was it that some of the Suhl craftsmen were on the outs with the Suhl guild and they had to submit their longarms to the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 246
Likes: 2
For most of the time there was a bitter rivalry between the neighbouring gunmaking centers Suhl and Zella-Mehlis, only because of this rivalry there were two govenment proofhouses. If a gun is proofed in Zella-Mehlis, it was made in Zella-Mehlis. Suhl gunmakers would buy in parts or complete guns from Z-M, but if they actually made the gun, they would give it to the "more respectable" Suhl proofhouse. The Suhl proofhouse had to accept any gun made at a Suhl adress, but not those made in Z-M, and vice-versa. Instead of reinventing the wheel, the Suhl gunmakers would often buy in guns made and proofed in Z-M and resold them under their own name, for instance most falling block rifles, but no Z-M maker (regarded as "cheapos" compared to the Suhl ones) would buy in Suhl made guns.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.064s Queries: 36 (0.042s) Memory: 0.8513 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 17:48:35 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS