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#194732 - 07/07/10 01:40 AM Help me identify more about my drilling
Rookhawk Offline
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I apologize if you're reading this in duplicate. I posted this question on my other "favorite" shotgun site with the same questions. Hoping someone will provide a response.

What I have is a drilling that needs some authentication work. I’ll try to explain and type what I see from my notes. The goal of my inquiry is four fold:

1. I want to identify the drilling’s rifle caliber by deciphering the markings. (I will then cast / slug the bore to verify it is still within safe standards)
2. I want to decipher the maker’s name and learn about his workmanship and history
3. I’d like to know what the gun might be worth.
4. I’d like to understand what the receiver of the gun looked like the day it was made. I believe it was a combination of French grey and case coloring, perhaps browned in some manner? I may wish to restore the gun and I’d like to get it back to the way it ought to be.

Much thanks!

Part 1: MAIN RIFLE BARREL

Okay, so the barrels are 16 gauge X 16 gauge X “Mystery Rifle”. The 16 gauge barrels are 2 9/16” chambered and the barrels are marked Krupp Stahl and nitro proofed.

Under the center area of the barrel (on the rifle barrel specifically) are the following marks in order from top to bottom:

172.28 (Comment: I realize this is 8mm…but which one!)
--------
58

7.11
511 (Comment: small chance this is actually 311. I suspect this line and the one above are May-1911 and July-1911 manufacture dates for the components?)


Part 2: LEFT SHOTGUN BARREL (right one omitted)

I realize the encircled 16 is the gauge. Does the adjacent number indicate a choke specification? The print appears to say:

1,8gr CBP
-----------
STMG (comment a Crown over N is to the left of this line indicating Nitro I believe?)


Part 3: MAKER’S NAME FRAGMENT (Part of name destroyed by front claw mount installation)

The Maker’s name on the top rib appears to be as follows “C. LE** ***MBURG” The most likely third letter in the 2nd word is another E or an F. If I had to guess at the whole name I’d say it was made by “C. LEEsomethingernother, haMBURG”. (a wild fill-in-the-blank guess)

Part 4: FINISH

When I look under the forend the steel on the splinter forend appears to be case colored. When I look at the receiver most areas that look like rust actually look more like brown case coloring to me upon close inspection. Is it possible that the gun originally was case colored?



Edited by Rookhawk (07/07/10 01:42 AM)

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#194751 - 07/07/10 08:34 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Pics would be most beneficial especially of the area between the flats and the forend lug down around the lower ribe where the mechanic's initials can be found.

Even though the firearms merchant has an address in Hamburg, the dreiling was made in Zella Mehlis(lower probability for Suhl). Zella Mehlis required the date stamp October 1st, 1911 while Suhl began September 1923. But Zella-Mehlis was dating some examples a good 10 years prior.

172.28 is the pre-rifled bore diameter measured with the plug gauge 172.28, which would pass the whole length while the next plug gauge in line would not. This designation only gives the diameter and was used up to 1910, when it was replaced by the "mm" stamp, but there are exceptions to the rule like yours. I'm not sure about the "58" and it might indicate length but that's a wild guess and may narrow the field to the 8x58R Collath or 8x58R Sauer and that would be interesting. I'd guess the cartridge to be the 8x57R/360, which also is in the 9.3mm family based on the British 360" BPE. A cast will provide the answers.

Since the "7.11" has the decimal, it would have passed the proofhouse, more than likely Zella-Mehlis, in July 1911. Just think next year this time it will be 100 years old. The "511" below notes it was the 5 hundred 11th example to pass thru in July of 1911. The encircled "16" on the scattergun tubes notes bore number, 65mm chambers and black powder while the vulgar fraction next to it notes the diameter at the muzzle unless the tube has greater than .008" constriction and then the value is the diameter at 22cm ahead of the standing breech. "Crown" over "W" denotes choke as well as an additional proof effort.

The "Crown" over "N" 1,8g GBP over St m g is an early volunteer smokeless proof noting the use of Gewehr Bläattchenpulver, military flake powder, and a steel jacket bullet. This may point to the cartridge being a relative of the 8x57IR.

Is it a hammer or hammerless and with the Krupp tubes it may have been sourced from Sauer and be one of their production models.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#194760 - 07/07/10 10:56 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
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Raimey,

Here is a link to all the photos of the drilling including the proof photos. Thank you for the information you provided. Any more detail would be greatly appreciated.

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

You may need to click download on some of the pictures so you can zoom/magnify the proof marks depending on your eyesight. The last picture in the entire series is the most valuable, a clear shot of the under belly of the barrels with the bulk of the markings.


Edited by Rookhawk (07/07/10 10:58 AM)

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#194775 - 07/07/10 01:35 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Indeed it was manufactured in the Zella-Mehlis area as it wears the intertwined "ZM" proofhouse stamp. Also with the dividing line between the "172.28" and "58", I'd say the "58" is the case length. It resembles an E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 501 without a Greener safety. Zella-Mehlis was the source of these Roux(Henri Roux France?) action dreilings. Other firearms merchants offered a similar drilling and sourced the craftsmen at Zella-Mehlis. There's a current thread around somewhere on a similar longarm.



The rifled tubes had the "Star" over "H" just before the "Krupp" steel stamp and that seems to have originated at the Hänel facility and could be for Hänel but I think it is the mark of Gebhard Helmuthhauser, who was the grandfather of Helmut Schlegelmilch who was an apprentice at the Carl Gottlieb Hänel facility in the early to mid 1920s. So with that I don't think the "H.S.", who was the mechanic that fitted the tubes to the action, was for Helmut Schlegelmilch but rather for Hermann Schlegelmilch, who was at some point in the late 1930s a barrel maker. Perhaps he had a father also named Hermann Schlegelmilch and performed the work. Of course there are other possibilities for "HS" associated with Hänel such as Hans or Hugo Schmeisser of Suhl but they were more into machine guns. Also H./Hugo Schilling of Suhl might fit the bill but I don't see any Schilling forge marks. And then there's Hermann Schneider of Zella Sankt Blasii who was active from pre-WWI to pre-WWII.

There are some other interesting stamps on the scattergun tubes just ahead of the flats that looks to be a "L" over "T" with a bar thru it and some seagull type mark just below that. Just below the "Fluss Stahl Krupp" there should be some type of forge stamp and it may be below the "Imperial Eagle" & the "Crown" over "S". I would guess they were sourced elsewhere than Hänel. Let me smoke over the pics and see if I can determine anything.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#194787 - 07/07/10 02:50 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
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You are amazing at the details! Thank you so much. I'll try to take some very high-resolution photos of the gun's marks in the next day or so if that would be helpful.

Also, I wanted to get some aesthetic opinions from the readers. The areas of the receiver "appear" from the photos to have rust on them but overall, the brown spots are not rust. They are some sort of coloring, perhaps a case coloring? Perhaps a shellack that has gone bad?

The engraving is actually very, very good even though the picture looks as though it is only slightly better than a guild gun. What has happened is that the ink/dye has faded or rubbed off and a great deal of the texture and depth of the engraved scenes has been lost. Any idea who I could get to "affordably" re-ink the engravings?

Could I strip the receiver completely with a solvent, acid finish it to grey and then have it re-inked by a decent artist to get it back to close to original?

Lastly, there are some pits in the barrels about 3" in from the breech. I bought the gun knowing this. I was planning to extend the chambers to 2 3/4" and get 4" extended forcing cones. I was thinking that the gun would have mirrored bores after this work was done, albeit it would have lost its 2 9/16th proofs to the chambers. Any thoughts?

I really like this gun and I was of the opinion that for a reasonable sum (<$1000) I could turn it into a 95%-98% restored gun I could actually use in the field each year. Would you have any comment on that thought?

Any idea of the gun's current value or restored value? Given the pitting at the forcing cones, would the barrel work lower or raise the value in the end?

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#194788 - 07/07/10 02:56 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
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One more thing:

The rifle cartridge marks were pointed out to be : "172.28" and "58".

172.28 is a bore size that converts to .300 in caliber and 8mm in metric. If 58 is a length of 58mm that would be a case length of approximately 1.4732". I have to make a chamber cast when my cerrocoat gets here, but I believe this is a straight cartridge with a rim.

Can anyone guess what type of cartridge might have existed in Germany around 1911 that was 58mm long with an 8mm or .300 bore that was straight walled?

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#194796 - 07/07/10 03:59 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Geno Offline
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Nice gun!
I saw the same gun Roux action with allmost the same engravings, but double not drilling and it had trade mark Remo (Gebr.Rempt) on rear hook.
_________________________
Geno.

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#194868 - 07/08/10 03:35 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Geno]
Rookhawk Offline
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Thanks. I think it is a neat gun too. I spent this evening doing a do-it-yourself restoration on the gun and I'll post the results in the next day or so.

The delightful suprise in all of this is that I was able to eliminate 99% of the surface rust from the entire gun and it looks excellent now.

In case anyone is interested to know what I did, I used #0000 steel wool on all the external metal while gently rubbing with generous amounts of gun oil. I repeated this process several times and found the results astonishing. No detail or finish was lost in the process.

After I used the steel wool, I used a gun degreaser to get everything extremely clean and dry, then used a trick I heard about from the gun engravers. I used a 2" long pink eraser all over the french gray receiver and boy is that an amazing trick. It cleaned all the micro fine (invisible) engraving cuts all over the receiver and it put the nice, consistent french grey look back all over the receiver.

Once I was done with everything, I applied lots of gun oil and admired it for a half hour. I can't believe how good the gun looks after such a simple process. It truly blows my mind that this gun is 99 years old and still in this condition.

I ordered the cerracoat alloy from Brownells today so I should be able to make the chamber casting as soon as it arrives. I'll report back when I know what the rifle is actually chambered for.

The last thing I uncovered is another clue regarding the name of the maker / seller. The name begins "C. LEB ****** MBERG". If I'm mistaken on anything, it is slightly possible that the 2nd word begins LEE or LEF but I'm now fairly confident that it is LEB. Anyone know how I can find out more about the potential maker / seller of the gun?

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#194871 - 07/08/10 05:08 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Geno Offline
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Most probably it was seller name.
It will be interesting to look inside the box, any photos?
_________________________
Geno.

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#194918 - 07/08/10 12:11 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Geno]
Rookhawk Offline
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Here is a link to the photos. It shows all the original "before" photos and the last dozen or so on a white background are the "after" ones. The proof marks are much more legible now.

I'm happy to say that all the numbers match on the entire gun! The lever, forend, barrel and receiver are all marked "30" for their serial #. One part on the receiver says "30L" which I suppose is either the maker or seller, whoever Mr. "C. LEB****, ****MBERG" is as shown on top.

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

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#194937 - 07/08/10 02:48 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
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Another update - chamber information. (this keeps getting weirder)

So the current theory is that the cartridge is approximately .300 / 8mm based on the proof marks. It was also marked either 58 or 68 under that proof making some believe that was the cartridge's length. 68mm = 1.72", 58mm=1.473". Neither really match up to the information I've received from the measurements taken with a dial caliper.

Based on measurements of the chamber:

The cartridge's rim is .500"
The base of the cartidge after the rim is about .434" wide.
5/8" into the chamber, the cartridge is about .415" wide.
At 2.3" into the chamber, there is a constriction that is either a really tiny shoulder or it is the lams, I can't tell.
The bore at muzzle is measuring .316 to .325 depending how I measure but this is a fuzzy number.

What kind of cartridge existed in 1911 that was rimmed, about 2.3" long (or longer) and had a tapered description such as this? Upon further review there is no taper/shoulder or reduced neck on this cartridge at all. It is a straight walled cartridge that gradually tapers down to the bore size. I've yet to find a metric cartridge that was built like this during that period of history.


Edited by Rookhawk (07/08/10 07:50 PM)

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#194951 - 07/08/10 04:57 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Lebeda is the only name I can think of right off but I don't know of a C. Lebeda. Also it has a Bavarian or Austrian style cheekpiece.



Note the side of the scattergun tubes have the post September, 1911 "Eagle Nitro" stamp. Evidently they were applying the "Nitro" stamp a bit earlier and still using the plug gauge post 1910.





Interesting device in the dolls head well. Just pour some wax in it and make a cast. I'd 1st compare it to he 8x58 Sauer but the cast will narrow the field.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse



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#194959 - 07/08/10 06:00 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
montenegrin Offline
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The town could be present Ukrainian Lviv (Lwow) which was called LEMBERG from 18th century till 1918 when it was a part of Austria (Austria-Hungary).
A wild guess for the dealer's name could be Lebed or Lebedev, but there are surely many other possibilities (including Lebeda of course).
With kind regards,
Jani


Edited by montenegrin (07/08/10 06:20 PM)

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#194967 - 07/08/10 07:40 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: montenegrin]
Geno Offline
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Never heard of C.Lebed, C.Lebedev or C.Lebeda or anybody else from Lemberg. I feel it was somebody from small German town wink

RookHawk, most probably 30L means 30Left - some part from left side of the box and it might be the same shape part from the right. Pair parts of English guns marked R and L in this case.
_________________________
Geno.

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#194969 - 07/08/10 07:43 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Geno]
ellenbr Offline
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Jani:
I think that's a swell start.

Geno:

Were you born in Lemberg or spent holidays there?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#194983 - 07/08/10 08:43 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Geno Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
Raimey, I was there twice. Nice city and girls over there wink
All gun related people in this area were well documented in J.Shokarev book.

There is Schömberg in Germany. Try this wink
Spremberg also.
_________________________
Geno.

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#194987 - 07/08/10 08:53 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Geno]
ellenbr Offline
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Where can a copy, or translated copy, of Shokarev's text be acquired?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#194990 - 07/08/10 09:06 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Geno Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
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This book is in Russian only as soon as I know.
http://www.bookland.ru/book2836247.htm
ISBN: 5-87624-055-9
_________________________
Geno.

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#194996 - 07/08/10 09:25 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
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Posts: 707
You guys have been just terrific. Thank you so much for your help finding out the history of this drilling.

I was checking through German town names that end in "MBERG" and I didn't really find that many. I would think a gun of this detail and quality would be sold out of a larger city instead of a small village, further limiting the options.

Would Nuremberg be a likely origin? Bamberg?

Incidentally, I looked at the 2nd word with a 10x jeweler's loop and it definitely says "C. LEBxxxx". The third word's letter preceding the MBERG could be an A but there is only 5% of the letter remaining.

Can we limit the possible locations of the manufacturer based on where the gun was ultimately proofed? (I assume guns were proofed at the nearest government office?)

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#195016 - 07/09/10 03:32 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
montenegrin Offline
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German spelling for Nuremberg is Nürnberg so this Bavarian city is not a likely candidate.
With kind regards,
Jani

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#195147 - 07/09/10 11:18 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: montenegrin]
Rookhawk Offline
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I just completed the measurements on my drilling's chamber cast. Would one of you that knows the measurements of 8x58 Sauer and the other rare drilling cartridges please look at the measurements taken and advise me to what I own?

The last picture in the drilling series is the measured drawing of the cartridge.

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

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#195148 - 07/09/10 11:22 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: montenegrin]
Rookhawk Offline
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Interesting how close I got by eyeballing the chamber and using a caliper before the casting.

The cartridge's rim is .500" (actually it is .510 on the casting)

The base of the cartidge after the rim is about .434" wide. (actually it is .438)

5/8" into the chamber, the cartridge is about .415" wide. (it is indeed .415")

At 2.3" into the chamber, there is a constriction that is either a really tiny shoulder or it is the lams, I can't tell. (actually 2.285)

The bore at muzzle is measuring .316 to .325 depending how I measure but this is a fuzzy number. (bore past chamber is actually .323)

Considering how hard it was to make a simple chamber cast, I don't think I'll try that again. Basic measurements with a caliper seemed close enough.

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#195159 - 07/10/10 04:44 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
montenegrin Offline
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Yes this certainly seems a 8x58R Sauer chamber (IMHO of course; I can't locate my pertinent books right now).
As for the chamber cast, I just melt the nearest old candle and put the cast to fridge overnight. Works nicely for this purpose and I too find cerrosafe metal casting unneeded. And BTW I do use shooting glasses when melting and pouring wax.
With kind regards,
Jani

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#195207 - 07/10/10 12:26 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: montenegrin]
Rookhawk Offline
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So here we are at a fairly scandalous question:

This cartridge is going to be a nightmare to allocate and therefore this gun is not going to be any fun at all to shoot.

I just ran the measurements and it looks like the chamber could be recut to 8x57JRS. The barrel is about .323 so the .324 bullets should go through without a problem. The proof marks on the gun are close enough that I'm not certain it would even "knock it out of proof". The era of the gun was correct for 8x57. The measurements of the barrel are right to accept 8x57. Guns like this most commonly had 8x57. And the only proof I have right now on the gun that alludes to cartridge beyond 8mm is a 58, which could easily have been the chamber length of an 8x57 JRS.

What do you think? Unfortunately, not much rifling left so the best I can hope for is minute-of-boar accuracy at 50 yards.

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#195241 - 07/10/10 05:02 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
montenegrin Offline
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8x58R sauer cases are not that hard to get so you can load yourself or have it loaded by a custom loader.
If you can get a gunsmith to rechamber to 8x57JRS be aware that this powerful cartridge operates at much higher pressures and the conversion would certainly require reproof.
Old drillings with seemingly allmost no rifling left can sometimes surprise us so presume nothing and rather do a test firing (before any conversion).
With kind regards,
Jani

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#195638 - 07/14/10 12:11 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rookhawk


I just ran the measurements and it looks like the chamber could be recut to 8x57JRS. The barrel is about .323 so the .324 bullets should go through without a problem. The proof marks on the gun are close enough that I'm not certain it would even "knock it out of proof". The era of the gun was correct for 8x57. The measurements of the barrel are right to accept 8x57. Guns like this most commonly had 8x57. And the only proof I have right now on the gun that alludes to cartridge beyond 8mm is a 58, which could easily have been the chamber length of an 8x57 JRS.


I think it should be left as original unless the bore is spent, which may lead to a reline, etc. If the bore is rough, jacketed bullets might bridge the gap. 8x58 Sauer(or 8x58 Collath) is what the chamber is and is an interesting round. Fresh ammo may not be available but you could either use 360 BPE or maybe even 38-55 and convert it to 8x58 Sauer.

To answer one of your previous questions, the longarm was made in the Zella Sankt Blasii/Mehlis region and proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#214334 - 01/22/11 03:37 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
kuduae Offline
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The retailer of this drilling was not an unknown gunmaker in the east, but Carl Leberecht (1848-1933) in Amberg, Bavaria, or his son Karl Leberecht jr. The gun was proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse, evidenced by the ledger number 511. Suhl never used such ledger numbers. So it was most likely made there, and not by one of the better known Suhl makers.The leberechts held patents for an automatic safety and a 1913 one for a barrel selector on a drilling. The C.Leberecht shop in Amberg existed u ntil a few years ago, when the last Leberecht was slain by a robber.

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#214407 - 01/23/11 09:13 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Nice intrepretation and find Axel E. I bet it took you a bit to pull that rabbit out of the hat. I don't know that anyone stated that the firearms merchant was unknown, but that the name and location was unreadable for the moment. The fact that the slots were cut may indicate that after a firearms merchant received their funds and the business transaction complete, they really didn't care if their name remained on the longarm. They would just move on to the next one. Now I know that some firearms merchants offered a warranty, but I don't know if all did. Who would have thought that 100 years later that the marks would be so scruntinized.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#214415 - 01/23/11 09:44 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: kuduae]
ellenbr Offline
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Originally Posted By: kuduae
So it was most likely made there, and not by one of the better known Suhl makers.


Axel E.:

Can we get a clarification on the "there" location: Suhl or Zella-Mehlis? Did you mean Z-M instead of Suhl or was it that some of the Suhl craftsmen were on the outs with the Suhl guild and they had to submit their longarms to the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#214431 - 01/23/11 10:44 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
kuduae Offline
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For most of the time there was a bitter rivalry between the neighbouring gunmaking centers Suhl and Zella-Mehlis, only because of this rivalry there were two govenment proofhouses. If a gun is proofed in Zella-Mehlis, it was made in Zella-Mehlis. Suhl gunmakers would buy in parts or complete guns from Z-M, but if they actually made the gun, they would give it to the "more respectable" Suhl proofhouse. The Suhl proofhouse had to accept any gun made at a Suhl adress, but not those made in Z-M, and vice-versa. Instead of reinventing the wheel, the Suhl gunmakers would often buy in guns made and proofed in Z-M and resold them under their own name, for instance most falling block rifles, but no Z-M maker (regarded as "cheapos" compared to the Suhl ones) would buy in Suhl made guns.

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#214716 - 01/25/11 11:48 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
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Incidentally,

The Z-M proofed drilling that was 8x58 is long since gone. I brought it back to the seller since it was misrepresented in July.

I had a second nearly identical Henri Roux type drilling in superior condition that was proofed at Suhl that was discussed in another thread. It is most definitely a 8x57 JR and in proof. (1/1929 proof date at Suhl)

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