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#194732 - 07/07/10 01:40 AM Help me identify more about my drilling
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
I apologize if you're reading this in duplicate. I posted this question on my other "favorite" shotgun site with the same questions. Hoping someone will provide a response.

What I have is a drilling that needs some authentication work. I’ll try to explain and type what I see from my notes. The goal of my inquiry is four fold:

1. I want to identify the drilling’s rifle caliber by deciphering the markings. (I will then cast / slug the bore to verify it is still within safe standards)
2. I want to decipher the maker’s name and learn about his workmanship and history
3. I’d like to know what the gun might be worth.
4. I’d like to understand what the receiver of the gun looked like the day it was made. I believe it was a combination of French grey and case coloring, perhaps browned in some manner? I may wish to restore the gun and I’d like to get it back to the way it ought to be.

Much thanks!

Part 1: MAIN RIFLE BARREL

Okay, so the barrels are 16 gauge X 16 gauge X “Mystery Rifle”. The 16 gauge barrels are 2 9/16” chambered and the barrels are marked Krupp Stahl and nitro proofed.

Under the center area of the barrel (on the rifle barrel specifically) are the following marks in order from top to bottom:

172.28 (Comment: I realize this is 8mm…but which one!)
--------
58

7.11
511 (Comment: small chance this is actually 311. I suspect this line and the one above are May-1911 and July-1911 manufacture dates for the components?)


Part 2: LEFT SHOTGUN BARREL (right one omitted)

I realize the encircled 16 is the gauge. Does the adjacent number indicate a choke specification? The print appears to say:

1,8gr CBP
-----------
STMG (comment a Crown over N is to the left of this line indicating Nitro I believe?)


Part 3: MAKER’S NAME FRAGMENT (Part of name destroyed by front claw mount installation)

The Maker’s name on the top rib appears to be as follows “C. LE** ***MBURG” The most likely third letter in the 2nd word is another E or an F. If I had to guess at the whole name I’d say it was made by “C. LEEsomethingernother, haMBURG”. (a wild fill-in-the-blank guess)

Part 4: FINISH

When I look under the forend the steel on the splinter forend appears to be case colored. When I look at the receiver most areas that look like rust actually look more like brown case coloring to me upon close inspection. Is it possible that the gun originally was case colored?



Edited by Rookhawk (07/07/10 01:42 AM)

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#194751 - 07/07/10 08:34 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8653
Loc: North Alabama
Pics would be most beneficial especially of the area between the flats and the forend lug down around the lower ribe where the mechanic's initials can be found.

Even though the firearms merchant has an address in Hamburg, the dreiling was made in Zella Mehlis(lower probability for Suhl). Zella Mehlis required the date stamp October 1st, 1911 while Suhl began September 1923. But Zella-Mehlis was dating some examples a good 10 years prior.

172.28 is the pre-rifled bore diameter measured with the plug gauge 172.28, which would pass the whole length while the next plug gauge in line would not. This designation only gives the diameter and was used up to 1910, when it was replaced by the "mm" stamp, but there are exceptions to the rule like yours. I'm not sure about the "58" and it might indicate length but that's a wild guess and may narrow the field to the 8x58R Collath or 8x58R Sauer and that would be interesting. I'd guess the cartridge to be the 8x57R/360, which also is in the 9.3mm family based on the British 360" BPE. A cast will provide the answers.

Since the "7.11" has the decimal, it would have passed the proofhouse, more than likely Zella-Mehlis, in July 1911. Just think next year this time it will be 100 years old. The "511" below notes it was the 5 hundred 11th example to pass thru in July of 1911. The encircled "16" on the scattergun tubes notes bore number, 65mm chambers and black powder while the vulgar fraction next to it notes the diameter at the muzzle unless the tube has greater than .008" constriction and then the value is the diameter at 22cm ahead of the standing breech. "Crown" over "W" denotes choke as well as an additional proof effort.

The "Crown" over "N" 1,8g GBP over St m g is an early volunteer smokeless proof noting the use of Gewehr Bläattchenpulver, military flake powder, and a steel jacket bullet. This may point to the cartridge being a relative of the 8x57IR.

Is it a hammer or hammerless and with the Krupp tubes it may have been sourced from Sauer and be one of their production models.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#194760 - 07/07/10 10:56 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

Here is a link to all the photos of the drilling including the proof photos. Thank you for the information you provided. Any more detail would be greatly appreciated.

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

You may need to click download on some of the pictures so you can zoom/magnify the proof marks depending on your eyesight. The last picture in the entire series is the most valuable, a clear shot of the under belly of the barrels with the bulk of the markings.


Edited by Rookhawk (07/07/10 10:58 AM)

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#194775 - 07/07/10 01:35 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8653
Loc: North Alabama


Indeed it was manufactured in the Zella-Mehlis area as it wears the intertwined "ZM" proofhouse stamp. Also with the dividing line between the "172.28" and "58", I'd say the "58" is the case length. It resembles an E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 501 without a Greener safety. Zella-Mehlis was the source of these Roux(Henri Roux France?) action dreilings. Other firearms merchants offered a similar drilling and sourced the craftsmen at Zella-Mehlis. There's a current thread around somewhere on a similar longarm.



The rifled tubes had the "Star" over "H" just before the "Krupp" steel stamp and that seems to have originated at the Hänel facility and could be for Hänel but I think it is the mark of Gebhard Helmuthhauser, who was the grandfather of Helmut Schlegelmilch who was an apprentice at the Carl Gottlieb Hänel facility in the early to mid 1920s. So with that I don't think the "H.S.", who was the mechanic that fitted the tubes to the action, was for Helmut Schlegelmilch but rather for Hermann Schlegelmilch, who was at some point in the late 1930s a barrel maker. Perhaps he had a father also named Hermann Schlegelmilch and performed the work. Of course there are other possibilities for "HS" associated with Hänel such as Hans or Hugo Schmeisser of Suhl but they were more into machine guns. Also H./Hugo Schilling of Suhl might fit the bill but I don't see any Schilling forge marks. And then there's Hermann Schneider of Zella Sankt Blasii who was active from pre-WWI to pre-WWII.

There are some other interesting stamps on the scattergun tubes just ahead of the flats that looks to be a "L" over "T" with a bar thru it and some seagull type mark just below that. Just below the "Fluss Stahl Krupp" there should be some type of forge stamp and it may be below the "Imperial Eagle" & the "Crown" over "S". I would guess they were sourced elsewhere than Hänel. Let me smoke over the pics and see if I can determine anything.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#194787 - 07/07/10 02:50 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
You are amazing at the details! Thank you so much. I'll try to take some very high-resolution photos of the gun's marks in the next day or so if that would be helpful.

Also, I wanted to get some aesthetic opinions from the readers. The areas of the receiver "appear" from the photos to have rust on them but overall, the brown spots are not rust. They are some sort of coloring, perhaps a case coloring? Perhaps a shellack that has gone bad?

The engraving is actually very, very good even though the picture looks as though it is only slightly better than a guild gun. What has happened is that the ink/dye has faded or rubbed off and a great deal of the texture and depth of the engraved scenes has been lost. Any idea who I could get to "affordably" re-ink the engravings?

Could I strip the receiver completely with a solvent, acid finish it to grey and then have it re-inked by a decent artist to get it back to close to original?

Lastly, there are some pits in the barrels about 3" in from the breech. I bought the gun knowing this. I was planning to extend the chambers to 2 3/4" and get 4" extended forcing cones. I was thinking that the gun would have mirrored bores after this work was done, albeit it would have lost its 2 9/16th proofs to the chambers. Any thoughts?

I really like this gun and I was of the opinion that for a reasonable sum (<$1000) I could turn it into a 95%-98% restored gun I could actually use in the field each year. Would you have any comment on that thought?

Any idea of the gun's current value or restored value? Given the pitting at the forcing cones, would the barrel work lower or raise the value in the end?

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#194788 - 07/07/10 02:56 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
One more thing:

The rifle cartridge marks were pointed out to be : "172.28" and "58".

172.28 is a bore size that converts to .300 in caliber and 8mm in metric. If 58 is a length of 58mm that would be a case length of approximately 1.4732". I have to make a chamber cast when my cerrocoat gets here, but I believe this is a straight cartridge with a rim.

Can anyone guess what type of cartridge might have existed in Germany around 1911 that was 58mm long with an 8mm or .300 bore that was straight walled?

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#194796 - 07/07/10 03:59 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Geno Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
Nice gun!
I saw the same gun Roux action with allmost the same engravings, but double not drilling and it had trade mark Remo (Gebr.Rempt) on rear hook.
_________________________
Geno.

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#194868 - 07/08/10 03:35 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Geno]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Thanks. I think it is a neat gun too. I spent this evening doing a do-it-yourself restoration on the gun and I'll post the results in the next day or so.

The delightful suprise in all of this is that I was able to eliminate 99% of the surface rust from the entire gun and it looks excellent now.

In case anyone is interested to know what I did, I used #0000 steel wool on all the external metal while gently rubbing with generous amounts of gun oil. I repeated this process several times and found the results astonishing. No detail or finish was lost in the process.

After I used the steel wool, I used a gun degreaser to get everything extremely clean and dry, then used a trick I heard about from the gun engravers. I used a 2" long pink eraser all over the french gray receiver and boy is that an amazing trick. It cleaned all the micro fine (invisible) engraving cuts all over the receiver and it put the nice, consistent french grey look back all over the receiver.

Once I was done with everything, I applied lots of gun oil and admired it for a half hour. I can't believe how good the gun looks after such a simple process. It truly blows my mind that this gun is 99 years old and still in this condition.

I ordered the cerracoat alloy from Brownells today so I should be able to make the chamber casting as soon as it arrives. I'll report back when I know what the rifle is actually chambered for.

The last thing I uncovered is another clue regarding the name of the maker / seller. The name begins "C. LEB ****** MBERG". If I'm mistaken on anything, it is slightly possible that the 2nd word begins LEE or LEF but I'm now fairly confident that it is LEB. Anyone know how I can find out more about the potential maker / seller of the gun?

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#194871 - 07/08/10 05:08 AM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Rookhawk]
Geno Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3774
Loc: St.Petersburg/Russia
Most probably it was seller name.
It will be interesting to look inside the box, any photos?
_________________________
Geno.

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#194918 - 07/08/10 12:11 PM Re: Help me identify more about my drilling [Re: Geno]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Here is a link to the photos. It shows all the original "before" photos and the last dozen or so on a white background are the "after" ones. The proof marks are much more legible now.

I'm happy to say that all the numbers match on the entire gun! The lever, forend, barrel and receiver are all marked "30" for their serial #. One part on the receiver says "30L" which I suppose is either the maker or seller, whoever Mr. "C. LEB****, ****MBERG" is as shown on top.

https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml

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