doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Daly Damascus color?

Here is a Chris. Funk peddled O/U at Bob Jones suggested to be a pigeon O/U: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4515S . Has anyone handled this one? Is the rib typical of a pigeon gun? Any idea on the single trigger maker? Was a safety also typical?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ken:
Have you logged this "cased" Lindner Daly #645 at Julia's Auction in 2008, which looks to have the initials "R.S.": http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=35530&sale=252 ?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It may be that Richard Schüler was sourced for some Dalys post WWI but an 1935 article in celebration of the 100 year mark for the history of Gewehrfabrik August Schüler seems a bit larger than like and may have been more or self lauding and advertising than anything else touting their vast machine shop. August Schüler was founded by Friedrich Schüler in 1835 with his younger brother August Schüler taking the reins in 1850. I guess that the name August may have been their grandfather's name, possibly father's name. August Schüler, CEO in 1850, had 2 sons Friedrich and Oskar Schüler both worked in the family business until 1913 when apparently there was some bad blood with a departure by Oskar Schüler. Friedrich Schüler had a son who was named Richard and it is he who had sourcing ties to Daly and it may have been thru a fella by the name of Robert Fahner. He joined a firm in 1928 and I guess it to have been the August Schüler firm. A cat named Frederick W. Hollender of New York( http://books.google.com/books?id=x2jZAAA...p;q&f=false ? - right side 7th from bottom ) seems to have been pen pals with Richard Schüler in the early 1930s. Hollender was the owner of some firm but I can't say he was attached to Charles Daly, which post WWI was owned by Henry Modell(I assume he was the son of Morris Modell): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modell's (copy & paste). Now I know that some of you aren't fond of Wikipedia but it is a location to start. Henry Modell sold the Charles Daly name/business to Sloan's Sporting Goods of 88 Chambers Street, NY. Like a cat, curiousity has just about got the best of me and I may just order the 1930s Sloan's gun catalogue at "Sporting Collectables": http://www.sportingcollectibles.com/MNOphotos/m32200sloans1930scat.jpg . In early 1930s correspondence between Richard Schüler and businessman Fredrik W. Hollender Hollender notes that "Daly Inc. Alias Sloans Sporting Goods co. 88 Chambre St, aus?" which I think means that by 1930 Daly was also known as Sloan's Sporting Goods at least by the 1930s. So it may be that Schüler was sourced from post WWI to the mid to late 1920s and then it may be that Sloan's Sporting Goods/aka Charles Daly continued with their sourcing lines which would have been to Gebrüder Adamy, with the examples slated for the U.S. of A. passing under the ever watchful eye of either Albert or Franz Adamy. Wilhelm Heym was also in New York in the early 1930s peddling 12 very nice example he brought with him in late 1931. I think this was an effort to establish sourcing lines and it may be that during this trip he courted G&H? So it appears the peddling on this side of the pond was as complex as the manufacture of weapons in the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis region.

Richard Schüler & Robert Schlegelmilch of course have the same initials and I think Robert Schlegelmilch, or the firm Robert Schlegelmilch, to have been active up to circa 1924.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, such good work. Thanks

Thanks Mr. Hallquist. I wish we had a few more Daly examples similar to yours from the 1920s and more from the early 1930s. I assume they will surface over time.

The plot thickens and I for the time I think this Fredrick W. Hollender to be the pen pal of Richard Schüler and possibly an importer of guns. The following NY Times article states that Carl Tielenius was a beer importer and purchased the beer importing Frederick W. Hollender & Co. firm circa 1910. Maybe Hollender was just an importer and would start a business and then sell it. Then he would go back to being an importer of something else. I wonder if Carl Tielenius was an importer of beer & guns from Germany. Who knows for now.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=990CE2D7103AE633A2575BC0A9609C946396D6CF

http://books.google.com/books?id=2W07AAA...ius&f=false

Frederick/Fredrik W. Hollender was from Germany and had 2 sons in the German Army: Brno & Frederick. The paragraph is just above "Safe in Stockholm" on the left side: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A0CE2DF1638E633A2575AC0A96E9C946596D6CF . So it was a much more Germanic connection than one might think and that was why the letters were always in German.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Here is a teaser - a Daly O/U from early 1930s. I also have a Diamond Quality 20 side by side from the same era. I've been told both are likely Schuler made, but have never seen any real evidence of that. What should I look for? Additional photos will probably be slow coming as I will be away for several days.

Terry:
A teaser it is as well as a nice addition to the overall Daly puzzle. It looks akin to the O/U at Bob Jones that has Chrs. Funk's name roll stamped on it. The arcaded fences are somewhat similar along with the 1/2 pipe side frame reinforcement. Even though the following diagram is a combo, I think the action is the same with the exception that yours doesn't have the deep forward lug that sticks thru the floorplate. The Schüler boys seemed to cotton to larger lugs and dogs with the front/forward portion of the cocking levers usually larger and dipping lower.

[quote=ellenbr]

from a Robert Schüler thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post184804

What I'd look for:

1st, is there a serial number on the left side of the watertable and on the lower tube?

Are the strikers bushsed as well as disk set? Are there any initals on the left side of the lower tube near the lugs and as well as any on the right side of the lower tube near the forend lug?

Is the "Nitro" stamp present on the tubes under the wood and is it block or script?

Is "Prussian"/"Germany" on the left side of the watertable as well as on the wood behind the pistol grip cap?

Krupp steel tubes and if so, what is the stamp past the "bullet" after "Krupp Lauf Stahl" a Gothic "J" or a script "W" in () - (W)? There should be a Kelber forge mark on both of the tubes.

The engraving really doesn't look like that of Fritz Heimbeck and I'd center a search around the oak leaves in the game scene.

What is rolled stamped on the right side of the top tube?

I could easily be wrong, but I don't think Gebrüder Adamy applied much effort to this example. And I'm not really sure that Richard Schüler performed a whole lot of work on the examples he was sourced for and that his "facility" was like all the rest in that he outsourced much of the work and the families of the same craftsmen who performed a specific task early-on on the Dalys are still contributing the effort. By the 1930s I'd guess that Richard Schüler's son Hans Schüler would have be an intergral part.

I forgot to note that there were others Suhl firms which used the advertising stamp "Sole U.S. Agents Sloans Sportings..." with one being Abesser & Merkel which was a partnership of Paul Abesser(I don't know of a F. Abesser yet) and Ernst Merkel, who received his master's sheepskin on August 14, 1929. I think it was a short lived venture in the 1920s and possibly 1930s which is the same time period we are concerned with for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Although there may be additional info, for the moment I can't find where German-American Frederick W. Hollender(Sole U.S. Importer), previous beer importer, of 245 Canal Street, New York had any strong ties to Charles Daly. But there are August Schüler O/U examples built on the Schüler Herkules action, which is noted in Patent 1105574 or 1.03.1930, with Charles Daly's name atop the rib. I think this patent more than likely was some modification to the Schüler Herkules as an August Schüler/Fred'k W. Hollender(Sole U.S. Importer) advert notes that a Model 6(Herkules O/U) won the world record in 1922 in breaking 199 or 200. Now on these unique actions, I'd say that Richard Schüler or his son Han Schüler contributed a large effort. O/U doubles were in vogue and common in the 1920s and 1930s.
I wouldn't omit Gebrüder Rempt/Remo from the equation as they had a comparable O/U action and they seem to be lurking in the shadows making components and longarms for the trade.

So today here's what I say about post WWI SxS & O/U Dalys: just because it an example has "Charles Daly" stamped atop the rib or engraved in gold on the sides of the frame doesn't mean that Richard Schüler made it. The example could have been sourcd from any of the aforementioned craftsmen and others, but I would first consider the owners of Charles Daly, or the name, and their original sourcing lines.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I knew I had seen another Daly SxS in the 26k range and I finally found in on page 14 of GGCA publication #26(Summer 2005 Volume 8, No.2). So Daly #2616x(SxS) would be #5 of those offered by Charles Daly with a serial number in the 26k range and wearing a proof date of 1931-1932. Mr. Fink had asked me which craftsman used the "M. Sch." stamp as his 20 bore O/U with a serial number of 266xx(O/U) has the stamp on the lower tube. Diamond Daly #2616x(SxS) in GGCA No. 26 also has the "M. Sch." stamp on the under side of the left tube. For now I guess that to be for Max Schleenstein who crossed paths with Heinrich Krieghoff while Heinrich was an apprentice and some sources indicate that Heinrich Krieghoff hired Max Schleenstein as his first employee. How was Max Schleenstein of Krieghoff sourced for effort on a couple of Dalys, I can't say. Maybe he was moonlighting? But the initials of "F.A." can also be found on the left flat on Daly Diamond #2616x(SxS) near the extractor and I want to think that is the mark of Franz Adamy. The same initals are found on Mr. Fink's 20 bore sideplated O/U Charles Daly dated December, 1932. So the craftsman "F.A." could easily offer both a SxS or O/U. Both Charles Dalys have a "W" inside a set of parans-(W) after the "bullet" on the "Krupp Lauf Stahl" stamp. Mr. Finks wears "Prussia" on the watertable while the Diamond Daly SxS has "Made in Prussia" on the right side of the watertable. Are the other possibilities for "M. Sch."? Yes and Moritz Schilling might fit the bill but there were also other stamps like "M.S.". Everyone thoroughly confused by now?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"Rifleman" February 1969. Anyone own this Daly or know the owner?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse