doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What constitutes "restored"??

Doug:
As a former IHC employee I want to tell you that's a beautiful example. The intent of my post wasn't to "put down" restorations but to show how thinking has changed over time. An example like mine(which would have been a 50s Corvette at that time) would have been routinely restored back to "as new" condition in the 70s or 80s even if it was still in decent original shape.
Current thinking, and you will see this if you watch the televised Mecum or Barrett Jackson auctions, is that "It can only be original once." and cars in the condition of my Corvette pictured above are now bringing premium prices. 20 to 30 years ago it would have been considered merely a used car in need of a total restoration. I don't personally have anything against restorations and there's plenty of room in this hobby to suit all tastes.
The problem to me is that like cars which have been restored to the point where they are trailer queens a firearm on which several thousand of dollars has been expended now becomes a safe queen. Too nice to drive and too nice to shoot! It's a pity to me that items that were made to be used and enjoyed now have to be handled with white gloves on.
If you look at other aspects of the firearms collecting hobby and, Lugers, Colt SAAs, etc. immediately come to mind; Any refinishing will immediately destroy the collector value of the piece. An example with even 60% of the original finish will bring more that the most profesionally restored example particularly if it is one of the rarer vriations.
Jim

CZapper:
You are dead on with this post CZapper....adding or changing chokes, bores, cones, butt plates etc., to a vintage shotgun is like putting turn signals or seat belts on a vintage vehicle....nothing uglier than a rubber recoil pad on a vintage double, except maybe a beavertail forend contoured like a canoe.....IMO.....

Phil:
You also are dead on....many nice guns are too nice to restore and only need a cleaning with possibly wood refinishing as necessary to return the piece to excellent condition....as long as the barrels and internals have not been butchered up.....I have a few like this as well.......blueing, case colors and engraving were excellent, so I just refinished the wood.....and I consider these guns at least 95%......

Jim:
Yes, you are correct.....there is room for everybody.......after all, the final conclusion is all about individual taste........"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"........or the potential buyer in some cases....!...

I have a '64 IH C900 Stepside Pickup, uses the same rims and caps. It's in need of "refreshment".

It cannot get better than to effectively shoot a well designed gun when the original form is delicately draped with a covering sewn from a cloth made out of age and respectful use.

I would say that "restored" is a gun that is brought back as near as possible to the way it was when it left the factory using original finishes and finishing methods. Barrel bobbing, honing chokes, recoil pads, wood upgrades, etc are modifications.

Here is where it all gets sticky. I am generally perfectly content to own and be seen in public with a decent used but not abused gun. I'd sooner buy a second (or third) gun with the chokes I desire than ream out factory original chokes. I see nothing wrong with rescuing or restoring loose, beat-up, rusty, broken project guns when possible. But I wish MOST folks would leave guns alone that are simply used and have acquired patina and character from decades of honest use.

Sadly, there are far more well meaning gun owners who seriously screw up otherwise decent usable guns than there are guys like Doug Turnbull, C. J. Opacek, Doug Mann, and Steven Hughes. There are many many other very talented professional and amateur gunsmiths. Many of them have shared their projects with us here, and they often make it damn hard to argue against restoration, alteration, or upgrades. But I think they are vastly outnumbered by the guys who could f*** up (that's "foul up") a one car funeral. I'd bet well over half of the guys who tear into their guns and ask questions about pieces, parts, and malfunctions don't own even one hollow ground screwdriver. Even some so-called professional gunsmiths do a lot of damage. Check out some of "Master Gunsmith" Ed Landers' work.

I just wish more people knew and accepted their own limitations of tools, techniques, and knowledge before they start "restoring" Grandpa's old Parker. I almost hate to see the subject come up.

To me, my 1927 4E Knick could benefit from a refreshed finish.
Scrub out the checkering with soapy water and a toothbrush.

Then a top coat of lacquer to fill in the worn out spots in the finish (see e.g., just behind the grip checkering)

A few that I've "refreshed" over the years without full restoration...all uncut factory barrels, chokes, chambers, cones and butt plates.....

LC Trap 1914- original cc and blue...refinished wood...


Sterlingworth 1929 Philly..100% factory cc and blue, refinished wood..

LC Ideal 1923 original cc, re-blue and wood refinish..

New rust blued barrels...

Very nice, Doug. Your guns certainly have more value than mine. Were you concerned that their value could be negatively impacted by wood refinishing or re-bluing in some people's eyes?

Phil:

No, not at all......it has been my life's experience that something very nice ALWAYS sells for more than something so-so or dirt bagged.....

I guess that in the world of "non-shooting" collector guns, i.e. SAA Colts, the original finish is desired...no matter how nasty it is......rust included.......the better the original finish, the higher the price......but these old shotguns are not worth a large sum of money anyway........

To quote the "cut 'em up" crowd..."It's my gun and I will do with it as I please"......

Here's some LC Field guns that I restored completely, cc, rust blue and wood....checkering touch up as needed......top to bottom are a 12, 16 and 20 ga, all lettered with Cody so I know the original barrel configurations etc......and all original parts including wood, new firing pins being the exception.....

No final finish ever in the checkering if you want it to look and be original, stain and light oil only.....see the forearm pictures above....days of soaking the wood in Acetone and Lacquer Thinner alternately until all the old oil is removed......epoxy and steel pin the head of LC stocks, which are weak up front and they will shoot for years without cracking.......with correct loads of course......

The 16 in the middle was special ordered with fancy wood and 22 LPI pointed checkering per the Cody letter....and is quite nice for a field gun....

All I can say is that wherever I go, people are always trying to buy them......and for pretty tall prices.....but they are not for sale.......

Doug:
An advantage you have is that you're capable of doing your own work. If the typical owner had a field grade gun restored to the specifications of the ones you've posted above I doubt if they'd ever get their money back out of it.
Jim