doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com type of choke by manufacturer?

Can anyone tell me what types of choke constrictions were used by L.C.Smith, FOX,Ithaca,Parker etc? Did they each make one type their standard or did they vary by the model or grade of gun they made? Like parallel for the better guns and jug for the Western Arms models? Thank you!

About 2 years ago I issued a request for 16g choke measurements and a number of respondents provided data for Parker, Fox, Baker, Ithaca, and Smith guns. Almost all had a choke length of 1 1/2 to 2 inches with a very short parallel section at the muzzle. 16g Parker guns made from 1891 to 1927 with chokes from .002 to .040 all demonstrated a choke length of 1 1/2" to 2".

Fox 16-gauge doubles made in 28', 33', and 37' were found to have chokes about 3 1/2 inches long in the tighter choked barrels BUT a 36' 32-inch barrel A-grade had full chokes of only 2 1/2 inches.

Dave Miles' information:

Parker DHE 16, 30" uncut titanic steel barrels, made in 1927
Bores are .665" both barrels choked .030" chokes 2" long

GH 16, 28" uncut Damascus barrels, made 1893
Bores are .665" choked .004" & .008" chokes 2-1/2"

DH 16, 30" uncut Damascus, made 1891
Bores are.675 (honed?) choked .020" & .030" chokes 1-1/2" long

DHE 20 Repro, 26" barrels made in 1980s
Bores .618" choked .010" & .020" chokes 2" long

PH 16, 28" uncut Twist barrels, made 1917
Bores are .670" choked .020" &.030" chokes 1-1/2"

Baker Black Beauty 16, 28" uncut barrels date unknown
Bores are .670" choked .030" & .040" chokes 1-1/2" long

GHE 12, 26" uncut Damascus barrels, made 1912
Bores are .735 choked .002" & .010" chokes 4" long

Dave Miles provided some excellent data from the PGCA showing that in full choke 12g. Parkers, the choke was bored with between .007-.010 constriction between 4 and 2 inches with the remainder of the constriction in the last 2 inches.
This is similar to what was found in a limited sample of 12g. Lefever, Remington, and Ithaca guns.

From Austin Hogan
Parker Chokes prior to sometime during Remington's ownership were cut with the adjustable nut borer and had the characteristic "OGEE" shape, with a parallel section 1/8 to 1/4 inch long. Late Remington barrels were reamed from the muzzle end, and have longer parallel sections.

P. 394 of L.C. Smith "The Legend Lives" shows the 12g choke specifications; a 1 9/16" taper segment with a 1" parallel segment.
See http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/chokedim.html for more infro.

All the Lefever guns I've had any dealings with have had a long taper choke, running to about 4" in full. For lesser choke the taper gets shorter. It would at least appear as if all the different chokes could be cut with the same reamer depending on how deep it was run. If I ever encounter a Lefever with a muzzle parallel I will assume it has been opened.

Drew, Thanks very much for the reply. I would ask for some clarification of your info as I am short on terminology.

Regarding Parkers you say: "choke length of 1 1/2" to 2". Then a .007-.010 constriction 4 and 2 inches with the remainder in the last 2"? Total length 4" to 6"? 4" or 2" taper to a 2" parallel? Have I understood this? That is that the "(1 1/2" to 2")" is the parallel at the muzzle end? Remingtons, Lefever, and Ithaca are the same?

Then if I understand, the example guns you list show the length of the parallels and this parallel is the "choke"?

I ask because I want to be certain of what you have explained. If one was to try to measure a guns choke they should expect a taper of anywhere between 2 to 4 inches and a parallel between 2" to 1/4", the later in the Remington Parkers? Thank you very much, Kurt

2 piper, You are saying that Lefevers have tapers only and that in essence if one wanted to open the choke on a Lefever they could do a proper job by shortening the barrel for the desired choke, excluding of course the devaluation resulting from the change in barrel length? Thank you.

Ben- if you'll e-mail me at revdoc2@cox.net I'll send you choke constriction charts that Austin Hogan did for the Parker Pages, and therefore should not be reproduced without his permission.

Note Dave's 2" chokes are 16g

For a 12g Parker with a 4" full choke of .040:
From 4" to 2" - .010 constriction
From 2" to 1/4" - .030 constriction
From 1/4" to muzzle - parallel segment without constriction

And just to add to the confusion - I had a 20g Trojan with barrels shortened to 24" from 28" after a snow obstruction blow out that still had .003 constriction at the muzzle.

Drew, Thanks greatly for the further explanation. I am a bit dense sometimes so I wasn't quite sure I understood. Your added help has made it very clear! Most Classic American doubles have some parallel choke, but Lefever. This will help with my measuring for sure. Thanks again, Kurt

Ben-T;
That is correct re the Lefever. Their catalogs stated that after much experimention they had perfected the "Taper Choke" which was a taper from breech to muzzle. A number of writers have apparently read this & stated Lefever chokes extended for the entire bbl length. I have never personally encountered one so choke nor have any knowlwdge of anyone else who has found one so made. Further I have no reason to believe a bbl so choked would perform much different than a Cyl bore.
There were makers other than Lefever who used the taper choke rather than the conical/parallel but at present I don't recall just who.
In the Lefever catalog they "Guaranteed" 85% patterns with their full chokes for any shot size. I truly suspect they were counting on not many folks doing actual pattern counting, as that's a rather bold guarantee especially in deference to the shells of the day with card & felt wadding & many being loaded with soft shot.

I have miked a bunch of bores and long ago came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a factory style of choking. Pick a manufacturer and you will find a mix of tapers and parallels (and bells). I think that this kind of stuff will happen as long as the chokes are hand reamed. If the bores were being reamed for a pattern and not a constriction, it stands to reason that there would be more fiddling going on.

As previously noted, the Lefever the bores are parallel, not tapered. The only Lefevers I have have miked were fairly open and the chokes were quite short, so I can't speak to the long taper aspect. Winchester seems to get a tighter pattern with less constriction than the others. This is very subjective, but the Winchester barrels seem to have a better finish than the rest. Like the others, Ithaca chokes are a mix of profiles but generally deliver good to outstanding patterns.

I have a Charles Hellis Premier SLE, 12 bore, 28" bbls with the left having a 7" straight taper to a 0.037" constriction at the muzzle (no parallel). I performs like (surprise, surprise) any other "full" choke constriction. I have found neither any advantage to this long taper, nor disadvantage to lack of parallel.

My model for choke behaviour is that the shot acts mostly like a fluid and is subject to a venturi-like drop in pressure as it passes throuch the choke constriction. If this is so, then a parallel will only subtract from the choke performance due to a friction induce pressure rise within the straight/parallel sided section. I think we can see this as the shot should experience choke effect from passing through the forcing cone, which could be thought of as a choke section followed by a very long parallel. It may be that some forcing cones (ones with about 0.040 constriction) will carry residual choke effect into the muzzle choke and might actually deliver tighter patterns. Generally, we get cylinder patterns from guns with no muzzle constriction, reguardless of the forcing cone passage.