March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
8 members (Lloyd3, Jimmy W, Marc Ret, Little Creek, PALUNC, 2 invisible), 307 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,373
Posts543,993
Members14,389
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
ellenbr Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_k.u.k._Hoflieferanten_1899

Some fine soul has discovered a/the k.u.k Hoflieferanten 1899 list for the Vienna court, scanned(original text looks to be to the far right) and entered it on the web. "k.u.k." is for kaiserlich und königlich standing for Imperial & Royal and Hof-lieferanten noting that an entity was a supplier/purveyor to a specific member of the court. 1st an entity or company had to have an established business relationship with the court and after a few years, and under close scrutiny, the title of top supplier could be attained. From what I can glean, the title was non-transferable and a partner, heir/assign or different owner would have to acquire a similar title. Taking Anton Mulacz, or Johann Erhart of Marburg for example, he is listed as a büchsenmacher so he supplied the gunroom of one of the members of the court. The title warranted a yearly stout fee and could be revoked at any time but it put the maker in the luxury goods realm. At the end of the Habsburg's reign there were some 506 top suppliers and around the turn of the 20th century there were at least 500 purveyors or more. Pre-1867 items may have a "k.-k." which stands for kaiserlich-königlich or "k.u.k." while most post 1867 items will have the the "k. u k." abbreviation, noting being from anywhere with the Austro-Hungarian empire, with the exception of items solely from the Austrian portion of the empire which will have the "k.k." stamp. A "m.k.", magyar kiralyi, would denote an origin from the Hungarian region. I'm sure there are other lists and I type all this to note that these lists may provide some insight into these Hof-Büchsenmachers, master gunsmiths sourced for sportings arms, that we're chasing. So those of you with k.u.k. examples feel free to post the name and/or pic. Hof-Büchsenmacher was just a marketing ploy or tool. Note that Springer is at the top of the list. The reason I stumbled upon this list is that there exits a Scherping example with Albert Staehle's name atop the rib and he was in Vienna in the mid 1860s and later he is listed as "k.k. Hof-Büchsenmacher Wien". In 1881 an advert gives Scherping as being a Hofbüchsenmacher in Hannover as well as Rasch of Brunswick as well as a Bruns of Brunswick but he was only listed as a gunmaker if I am reading it correctly.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 68
Likes: 7
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 68
Likes: 7
Herrlich! Wissen Sie etwas ueber den Hof-Buechenmacher, A.F.W. Timner von Koblenz. Es gehoert mir eine Hahnbueche von Timner. Ich weiss dass Koblenz war nicht in Oestereich-Ungarn, aber einege auf diese Liste sind auch von Deutschland.

Alles Gute!

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
ellenbr Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
J.K.B.:


I know very little on ole A.F.W. Timner of Coblenz, Koblenz post 1926? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koblenz, on the Rhine near the intersection of the Rhine & Moselle, but have seen his name in the Polytechnisches Journals and that he peddled or was sourced by a von F. Hauptmann of Berlin in mid 1870s for his 1876 Model pistol(Timner design and patent?), if I remember correctly. I don't think he acquired the title until post 1875 but that is just a guess. I hope more Hof lists will surface and give us a direction to search. He, or his heirs & assigns, offered the full spectrum of arms from pistols to vierlings. Cabelas had a drilling with his name on it and I think they were asking say $6k U.S. of A. I'll look to see if I have any more info.

Another interesting master gunmaker is Hof-Büchsenmacher J. Schmidt of Güstrow who may have hung out his shingle in 1843. Could this maker have influenced H. Scherping to choose the path he chose?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 809
Likes: 15
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 809
Likes: 15
How did you guys do umlauts over your letters??? When typing up your post?


-Shoot Straight, IM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 8
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 8
Raimey,
I thank you very much for this information, very interesting.
BTW I live about 1/2 hour from Marburg (Maribor), Johann Erhart's domicile, and go there from time to time. I've seen a few of his guns, mostly target rifles.
With kind regards,
Jani

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642
Likes: 1
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642
Likes: 1
Hi IM,

You mean ü ö ë ä? With my Mac, you type alt/option, u and then the vowel you
want accented.

JC


"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
ellenbr Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
Appreciate the comments, Jani. Any additional info on Johann Erhart's heirs & assigns? Maybe his address?

IM:
I have these written on the back of my hand so I don't know all the characters:

ä - hold "alt" while pressing "132" on number lock
ö - hold "alt" while pressing "148" on number lock
ü - hold "alt" while pressing "129" on number lock
ß - hold "alt" while pressing "225" on number lock

and the degree symbol, ° , is "248".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 255
Likes: 5
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 255
Likes: 5
I change the windows language from English to deutsche using the settings in start etc, and you then get the 2 options EN or DE showing down in the lower right area of the screen then I just hop over to deutsche with the mouse and use the relevant key to get the umlautet letters onto my normal posts then go back to EN.
Martin
Hi Raimey.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
ellenbr Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
There may be other marketing titles, but I did find the term Herzoglich HofBüchsenmacher on a G.L. Rasch, which would be centered around Duke and I guess the best way to sum up the advertising is subcontractor or wholesaler to the court of the Duke, King, whatever.


Pinfire from Littlegun's site: .

Interesting engraving on the hammers, maybe Neo-Gothic?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
ellenbr Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736
Likes: 181
I've seen examples by Jozsef Kirner of Budapest stamped with Cs.(Császári) Es Kir.(Királyi) Udvari Puskamüves Jozsef Kirner - Pesten. He's listed as a master gunmaker in the Budapest list and he obtained his warrant in 1869. And thanks to Jani I now know that Császári Es Királyi Udvari Puskamüves means the same in Hungarian as k.u.k. does in German. I believe Jozsef Kirner was a Junior and a descendent of George of Bavaria, maybe his grandson.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.093s Queries: 36 (0.063s) Memory: 0.8542 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 14:33:03 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS