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James M Offline OP
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I recently managed to purchase this Schutzen rifle out-of-the-woodwork.
The overall length is approx. 50" and the weight is about 12lbs.
The barrel is marked Otto Zettlinger on the right side.
The barrel is marked Eichstatt Bayern on the left side.
The drop block appears to be marked "SYST AYDT".
I'm guessing the caliber is 8.15 X 46 or therabouts but I will do a chamber cast to verify this.
The overall condition of this rifle is truly excellent.
I would appreciate any information my fellow forum members can provide.
I will try to take some better pictures as the light isn't great right now because the engraving and workmanship on this rifle is exceptional.
Jim





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Jim,'

Could that be a System Aydt? It was an action that Scheutzens were built on and some had those twin levers. I passed one up a few years back because I wasn't sure what it was, wish I had known then what I know now.


Google System Aydt rifle, lots of info.

Might want to post this in the Single Shot/Custom forum.


Rob


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Yes, it is a Original System Aydt and I'd guess made by Bruno Anschütz. Otto probably peddled if from(copy & paste) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichst%C3%A4tt (Eichstätt, Germany). Pull the pin in the forend and see what the stamps are on the underside of the tube which will be something like "7.6/46" "B.A." "serial number" & "data code". There may be an encircled large "A" over "B" on the top of the barrel for Bruno Anschütz. Neat that it has the case for the aperture. Usually the tube length is in interger mm. The stock looks to be typical Tyrolean.

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Raimey
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James M Offline OP
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Rob & Raimey:
Thanks for the quick responses. I will be digging into this more over the next few days as It's going to be a learning expeience for me. I appreciate any information that anyone can provide. My pictures don't do this rifle justice as the engraving is truly a sight to behold!
One problem I'm having is getting those two intercepting "levers" on the left side of the receiver to lock back up properly. I moved them and now the lower one won't go all the way back into position(see photo).

I pulled the forearm and this is what is stamped on the barrel:
*BLG 11mm running with the barrel on the bottom
*Crown N Nitro on the left side of the barrel

These are the addl. marks on the bottom of the barrel:

*Crown over E above Crown over I? (very small and this is what they appear to be.)
*Crown over G
*7.6mm
*625
*846

These are all the markings I can find and I try to take some pics. later
Jim

Last edited by italiansxs; 04/15/10 07:55 PM.

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How about "BLG 11gr" for 11 gram lead projectile? "Crown" over "E" for express sounds odd. Is there a dot between "625"? Probably proofed in June 1925. They are a joy to shoot and usually are pretty simple to disassemble. Sometimes it takes a firm push to latch. With 7.6mm it may be a tight set of rifling but there are some schools of thought out there that suggest that a lead bullet will span down the diameter range.

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Raimey
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James M Offline OP
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I took a picture Raimey and that may clear things up.
Jim


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There is a group at Ben Averey that can tell you all about it.

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Well indeed is was Express proofed. "Crown" over "U" is the stamp below that. Proofed as #846 in June 1925. There many be a marker's mark right up at the frame. Very nice example by the way and I would suspect the maker would want his stamp on it somewhere. If the breech block is stamped say "Syst. Aydt D.R. Pat." or "Original Syst. Aydt" and there is a serial number below that then Haenel made it. If there isn't a serial number either Haenel provided the frame or Haenel had enough work that they were churning out the frames and thru caution to the wind regarding serialization.

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Raimey
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This is the system Aydt with the external extractor. The caliber will be 8.15x46R (very simular to the american 32-40). It was designed strictly as an off hand 200 meter target rifle. In Germany, you can purchase swaged bullets easily. In the USA you have to cast your own(the correct bullets molds are avialible from NEI, see there mold .318-175 #86A). This is known as a stop ring bullet. It is loaded into the case with your fingers until the "stop ring" stops it from going in deeper.
The 7.6mm refers to the bore, not grove diameter.

What got my attention is the case for the site. That is more rare than the rifle.

Hope you have a lot of fun with this one.

Scott

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James M Offline OP
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Here's a couple of closeups ot part of the receiver engraving.
First one is right side second is left:
Jim



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I usually purchase my stop ring bullets from Buffalo Arms: http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,129.html

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Raimey
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Just a lovely rifle. Could the engraved figures be Siegfried and Brunhild?

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Neil, before seeing your post I was about to comment that the engraving was very ¨Wagnerian¨.

Nice rifle!

JC


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Engraving is very similar to the style of the one I saw, only that one had a Brauhaus maiden with beer steins on one side and a Jaegermeister on the other. If I recall it was a Haenel.

While the metalwork on the one I saw was excellent, the stock looked like I had made it myself. Badly carved and finished, nothing as nice as Jims. It was also missing the rear sight, had the mounting hole but no sight.


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James M Offline OP
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So what's in the accessory box? Well it's obvious it's an extra sight. But what about the other pieces?
Jim
Picture 1 Are the items in the box. One item is still a mystery.

Picture 2 Are the three items out of the box. I don't know what the single metal item that looks like a spare firing pin is for exactly.

Picture 3 Is the small tubular device with a cork in the end. If you pull the cork and look thru it you get some magnification.

Picture 4 Is the sight with the tube screwed onto it. It's purpose apparentely was to provide some magnification thru the peep hole.


Every time I look at this rifle or the accessories I discover something I hadn't noticed before. As I stated earlier; This is going to be a learning experience.


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The magnifier is too cool! Never seen that before. Is it focused for a specific distance?


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James M Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Recoil Rob
The magnifier is too cool! Never seen that before. Is it focused for a specific distance?


I have no idea Rob but when I look through it at the computer screen it seems to about double the size of the print when I have it in focus.
Jim


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There looks to be a D.R.P.(patent) number on the device. Can you tell what the number might be? With that I might be able to dig something up.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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The only number is "1" at the top of the metal part stamped D.R.P.
I just returned from my club where we did a chamber cast and confirmed the caliber is 8.15 x 46R. I also took the opportunity to completely disassemble the gun an give it a thorough cleaning. It had been heavily greased intenally at some time in the past. The gunsmithing staff agreed it is in supurb condition and they're after me to get some ammo for it as they all want to fire it!
Jim


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Thanks Jim. Scopes were a big no-no, faux paux, in the target arena during this era and I assumed it was a device that was used in an attempt to level the playing field for those with failing eyesight. I couldn't find the D.R.P. number so I contacted a GGCA member in Germany, Axel Eichendorff, and he provided me some info and this image from a 1930 catalogue, I think. I'll post additional info soon.


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Raimey
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Thanks again Raimey:
I really appreciate the additional information you are providing.
Regards
Jim


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What a handsome treasure! Thank you for sharing it with us.


> Jim Legg <

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That is neat,especially the case and sight.Could it have been brought home in a duffle bag?
great find Jim,always nice to see one of us find a winner like that !


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James M Offline OP
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Thanks for all the nice comments.
BTW: As I stated earlier; Everytime I look at this rifle I find something new. Both sights have a dial gauge built into them which allows you to change the size of the peep hole apeture at will.
Jim


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Below is the info supplied to me:

"This thing is named a Sperberroehrchen. Now, a roehrchen is a small tube, while a Sperber is a rueopean sparrowhawk. Either this attachment was named for the keen eyesight of this bird (there was also an Adlerauge = eagle eye attachment for a front sight tunnel), or the inventor's name was "Sperber"? I don't know. In German target competition scopes were not allowed, but elderly or shooters with defective eyesight could use "optical aiming aids", i.e. lenses attached to their sights. So someone designed such devices which also provided some magnification, but stayed barely within rules. Postwar, even some tiny "non-scopes" like the Hensoldt Diapi (see GGCA bulletin #35, page 6) were made for this purpose."

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Raimey
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James M Offline OP
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Question to all:
I have been unsuccessfully trying to find some professionally loaded ammo for this Schuetzen in 8.15x46R or as an alternative some new reloadable brass.
I have tried RWS which has loaded this caliber at times to no avail to stockers such as Kittery Trading Company and Huntingtons.
None of these have any cartridges or reloadable brass at this time. I do NOT want to use resized 30/30 cartridges such as are available from Buffalo but will as a last resort.
Anyone have any other ideas or potential sources?
Jim


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Jim:
What kind of numbers are you looking for, i.e., how many do you need to get you started? Also what did the bore slug? I may have a handful of Kupfer-Teilmantel-Geschoß but the bullet mass is 9.8 grams. In the short term if you are going to shoot a good bit I think you'll need to embrace the 30/30 idea.

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Raimey
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Loaded ammo
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4103.html

Brass
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,793.html

RCBS makes the dies, if you can find them.

Loading information is available from Quickload.

Pete

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James M Offline OP
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Raimy and Pete:
Thanks for the information. My interest in shooting the rifle at this time is really from a curiousity perspective. Being an amateur historian I often wonder what it was like to experience some of the passtimes that have either gone by the wayside or become of interest to only a small group.
Schuetzfests were enorminously popular in prewar Germany as sporting activities and to some extent here as well.
Keeping this in mind I'm looking to acquire enough ammunition,which I would expect to be a very small amount, to satisfy my curiousity and see what develops from there.
Jim


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Jim,

Such a cool rifle & accessories, I couldn't stand to sit back any longer and have to throw out an offer. A while back I purchased 3 boxes of RWS 8.15x46R Brass, it is new & has never been loaded. I to one day hope to own a nice Schutzen rifle & that's why I purchased the brass, but I can't stand to see you getting held up. I would be willing to trade/barter/sell a box of it if it would help get you going. I have a few German guns that I collect & I am always trying to scrounge up original ammo or components for them. If interested PM me & let's see what we can workout to help get you shooting & reporting back here.

M-4
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Mike:
The PM function here is unpredicitable. If you didn't get one from me email me at:
italianstallion@cox.net
Jim


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Mike has graciously offered to sell me a box of RWS 8.15 brass. Next step is to find some properly sized bullets and see what I need at a minimun tool wise for reloading.
Jim


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Research is a continuous task for me and I finally was able to find out more about this rifle. The box with the spare sight and magnifier has a partial trade label on the lid for a pre-war firearms distributor/manufacturer(?) in Nurnberg. A friend with access to a period telephone directory for Nurnberg has identified the distributor as Georg Lechner.
Jim


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Jim,

congratulations to this find!
You can read more about German target rifles, accessories, reloading, match rules and and and here:
http://www.feuerbixler.de/

German only, unfortunately, but a box full of treasures.
Regards,
fuhrmann

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Hello Jim.
That is a beautiful rifle.
Although it had been waning a bit, every April there is a schuetzen match at the Bridgeport, CT R&P club.
Indoor 50ft with rim and centerfire. The real draw is to see some of the rifles that come in for the event, as there are a number of fairly serious collectors usually present.
Nice to see them shooting the guns as well.
Typically a number of martinis and system Aydts. Some vintage American guns, as well as newer models like CPAs.

I have a Buchel Meister (similar looking to the Aydt) in the 8.15 that I shoot the match with and I get my bullets from Bob Hayley in Texas. I finger seat the stop ring over a small charge of green dot and they cut one hole at 25 yards, so more than adequate for indoors.
I believe that ch4d makes dies as well.
I still find it amazing that back in the day, there were people shooting cleans at 200m- wearing a suit and tie.

Good shooting

Tom


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