doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J.P. Sauer & Sohn - what model?

I don't think the "1940" has any association with the date of proof. About anything is possible, but I would think an Austrian longarm would have some type of proofstamp unless during wartime and the stock would appear more Austrian. Also on imported tubes I'd expect to see Sauer & Sohn on the underside of the tubes. But it is possible that it was built in Austria from sourced components. The British stamps might hint toward the fact that it was acquired during British occupation at the end of WWII and it was taken back home to Britian. Still odd that Sauer is on the top rib.

A few Austrian labeled longarms:

Rigby style forend latch



Drilling at Bob Jones.

One thing though, Jani's example has the forend "bump" that may be attributed to Schilling or Triebel. I don't know that I've seen it on Austrian examples, but it could have been sourced.

And Jeff if you are referring to something argumentative with me, your all alone looking in the mirror as I'm only pulling info together to compare in an attempt to get at the truth since I can't hold Jani's example in pieces to inspect.


Also I'll concur that the above fuzzy pic is very, very similar to a Viennese Kipplauf whose frames were sometimes blocky.

I knew that I have seen a similar retaining screw somewhere:



Clay's J. Nowotny

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Sempert & Krieghoff at Jaquas


Jani's(is there any difference in the left & right hammers?)


Sempert & Krieghoff, who began in 1886, hammer example at Jaquas.

"There are two sets of initials on one tube: WD and AL (? faint)."
It is possible there was a craftsman in Austria to mate with the initials, but for now I can't find him and I default back to craftsmen at Zella Saint Blasii who were sourced or they themselves sourced components. Post 1900 there was a W. Diemb/Diem of Suhl who was a barrel blank maker and may have been associated with Ziegenhahn.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jani:
I finally got my safe open and found the W. Mertens Jones underlever with a set of browned tubes("Crown" over "V" on top rib) stamped only on the flats with what I think to be the London preliminary. The locks have "SS" stamped near the breech end and have a teat that extends into the stock on the opposite end. It has the typical bar with centered screw type removal for the strikers just like the early hammmer Sauer Daly hammer drillings. It also has a "bump" on the attached forend.



The Sauer DR #19004 from Mr. Cate's text under the W. Mertens looks to have a similar frame. And on page 68 of Mr. Cate's text are 2 Sauer's with the Jones underlever that have the firing pin retaining screws and similar fences but with conical balls.




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't know whether it is apparent or not but many of these examples are from my favorite period that being the latter part of the 19th century. It was an example from that period that made me bite hook, line & sinker and I've been smitten with the period and craftsmen ever since. Similar to Drew, I may be the only one following this(Drew I am closely following your efforts), but Jani's acquisition does have the "bow-tie" or sculpted cross feature at the triggerplate to frame interface and the frame is sculpted similar to other Austrian examples. A couple of the questions that I have that prevent me from going "all in" on the Ausrian theory is that the lock and forend seem typical so Suhl and surrounding areas. On most Austrian examples I've seen the locks have a slight different pin configuration and are attached by a screw at the forward/receiver end, and may be a moot point. But post 1882 after rail entered Suhl, components could have more easily been sourced from Suhl. If I remember correctly most if not all of the German sourced tubes found on Austro-Hungarian examples either had a Sauer mark, one of the Kebler boy's mark or some other Suhl/Zella Saint Blasii tube craftsman's mark. In the mid to late 1880s, the Ferlach cooperative was formed and the craftsmen really began to embrace mechanization. But I'm sure they still sourced Suhl. Also with a Sauer rebarrel, I'd think there would be marks typical of Sauer. So with Jani's example being devoid of any Sauer facility marks, I'd think the tubes were made elsewhere and Sauer's name roll stamped on the top rib. The lack of proofmarks also makes me question a Sauer rebarrel unless it was possible during wartime production. All in all a truly interesting puzzle.


Noted as having "Not English Make" and "2 1/2" " stamped on the flats or tubes.


J. Just Drilling.


Johann Springer


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot about Jorge's Schindler of Zella Saint Blasii with barrel stamps "AL"(August Lenz?? or Franz August Luck??) and "EW"(E. Wahl?? of the tube making Wahls):






Jani's acquisition.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Franz Neuber, O/U






Johann Fükert Weipert


Carl Gründig DR

I bet ya'll had thought I had forgotten about this one and was going to let a sleeping dog lie. But alas I have found the pics I was looking for to post and am about to call "calf rope" being all in on Jani's example being assembled in Austria during a period when the proofhouse was inactive(WWII??), with an Austrian frame and other components sourced from Suhl. The Johann Fükert is one such example that was "on hand" in early 1893 in Germany, but by all accounts should have been assembled/made in Weipert. Some of the Gustav Fükert examples I've viewed had the German "Eagle" "Crown" over "S" stamp as well as a Kelber forge mark so the sourcing of Suhl had to be very strong. Also early on in the pin-fire examples, Schilling forged & filed some frames with arc attribute at the bottom on the frame. And the only way I could see the possibility of a re-barrel would also being during an inactive time for the proofhouse. Quite the puzzle.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Clayws has acquired yet another interesting example utilizing a square hidden crossbolt with "J.P. Sauer & Sohne" on the tubes and W. Eblen of Stuttgart on the top rib. The preliminary marks on the tubes are German and the final proofmarks of 1920(#133) are of the Weipert proofhouse. So was W. Eblen of Stuttgart and others like G. Wilcke, Heinrich Scherping, etc. actually agents of Sauer & Sohne???














The engraving strikes me as being similar or the same as that found on Frantisek Faukner's examples.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looks very "un Sauer-like" to me.

Best,

C.

Kofoed:
I'll agree 100% as it looks purely Bohemian to me. I don't see any typical Sauer marks that suggest it was in the Sauer facility with the exception of a mangled "M" on the underside of the right tube between the "Crown" over "S" and the forend lug. So are the marks forged or does it just imply that Sauer was the tube source? Maybe Clayws will take a pic of the lettering. A tradelabel for H. Scherping/Sauer has surfaced and Mr. Dietrich Apel begs the question were many of those Hof/K.u.K. makers actual agents. For now I just don't think so but as always it is a possibility.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Clay comes thru with the pic:


As an after-thought, I wonder if J. Wenisch performed his own engraving(of the handi-work on the frame - different pic) or if Manes had a hand in the effort of the example.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse