doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com English Boxlock Classification Question

The view that a best gun must be a sidelock might benefit from reading David McKay Brown’s web site, in particular:

http://www.mckaybrown.com/thesidebysidegun.html

And as Ghostdog’s comment notes, one might also consider the products of past Scottish makers like John Dickson & Son and James MacNaughton & Son.


Berrien Moore

There are no rules for what makes a best gun. It's kind of like "organic." That being said, to me it means the a gun being made to the highest standards possible.

So, no intercepting safety sears, no screw-in hinge pin, no Best gun.

Top-of-the-line Greeners are beautiful, but I don't think they have intercepting safety sears.

Dicksons & McKay Browns have push-in pins. I don't know if they have intercepting safety sears.

On WR droplocks the hinge pin is part of the action. So, there's no way to replace it when the gun goes off the face.

On a hammergun, I would overlook the intercepting safety sears. They have to have screw-in pins, though.

Gold, engraving, and embellishments have nothing to do with quality. But when they do adorn a Best gun, they need to be perfectly executed.

Now I know my standards are high. But when you're talking about the best, you have to have the highest standards. That's what being the Best means.

OWD

Gimme a break OWD.

Larry, maybe old man Greener was cranky cause' he was tired of hearing all the B.S. regarding "best guns", especially the bs coming from the "London" trade, kinda like we are tired of hearing the b.s. today. I think he might have known a little on the subject of what it takes to make a best gun and what a best gun should represent. I could only imagine that in his day...his ideas, and thoughts on the subject flew right in the face of British elitism in the gun industry, especially affecting the "major" houses in London proper. I like that about Mr. Greener.
And by the way..."My name is Dustin, and I like Greener side safeties".

LeFusil, Exactly! abra cadabra aside, that is a Best Boxlock; boxlock being a qualifier. It is not what was referred to when the term "Best" was delivered.

Of course we can change or tweak an original meaning; it seems many want to. Guns which do not have chopperlump barrels for example are not Best guns. Being less labor and talent intensive and being less costly to produce, neither are boxlocks.

People use the term "anal" today to mean just about anything THEY want it to mean. But the phrase anal expulsive and anal retentive coined by Freud had and still has only one true meaning. People who use the phrase to indicate something THEY mean does not necessarily mean they are wrong, but, they are not using the phrase accurately, correctly, etc. They either lack knowledge of it's true meaning, or are using it loosely to serve their purpose.

Those are both very nicely done and highly adorned boxlocks by the way.

Makes you wonder if Greener was a lefty, doesn't it Dustin?
There are English boxlocks that have intercepting sears. There aren't many of them, however. And not all of those feature Best Gun levels of fitting. But, some do. As to the screw in hinge pin being a feature of a Best Gun, I have my doubts. It is a feature that offers up little in the way of superiority vs any other way of accomplishing a knuckle joint on a double. It isn't like a Best Gun comes with a spare fitted hinge pin in the case designed to be serviced in the field-guns usually wear on the lump. Hell, my Tobin has a screw in hinge pin, it can't be that tough to do.
Going strictly by OWD's description, couldn't a graded, American, Baker be considered a Best Gun?
That being said, I fall pretty much in agreement with Greener-the boxlock is an improvement over the sidelock in shotgun design. The sidelock was nothing more than a hammergun, with the hammers moved inside. The king shot a sidelock. Some of his hanger's on still shot hammer guns. You likely didn't. But, you could get a boxlock, finished up as well as a sidelock, with all of the same important features. It would cost about the same as a sidelock.
Fewer were made at this level of fitting then sidelocks, but, that doesn't mean they weren't made or they don't exist.


Best,
Ted

"couldn't a graded, American, Baker be considered a Best Gun?"

Apparently this cheeky young Yank thought so

I suppose John Dickson is rolling over in his grave after finding out that his guns were only "mediocre".

So, by your definition, a best gun cannot have Damascus barrels eh? You and I both know that is pure bollocks. Many "best guns", boxlocks and sidelocks sport damascus tubes, the finer, more elaborate, the better. I've never seen chopperlump damascus barrels, have you?? I know a fellow by "Parsons" patented chopperlump damascus barrels in the 1860's (did you know that?), but these are extremely rare and most definitely not the "norm". The norm for a makers best effort during this time period would have be the finest Damascus with dovetail lumps . I think its safe to say that a set of Sir Thomas Kilby's finest English Damascus cost alot more to make in both time and effort than Sir Joseph Whitworths fluid compressed steel . Well Mr. Rowley, looks like its back to the drawing board for ya.

Dustin

DH-

I never said mediocre. They're very nice guns - elegant, refined, tasteful. But I don't think they're on par with a true Best, like a 1920s Boss. Few guns are, though.

And Bests don't have to come from London. I don't care where they're made, as long as they're made to Best standards.


So many guys on this board go by the mantra "buy the gun, not the name."

Well, if you want to evaluate a gun, you have to develop a criteria for judging it. If the gun don't make the grade, it ain't a Best. I don't care whose name is on it, where it's from, what kind of history it has, or who says what about it.

Now, I'm more than open to people questioning my criteria. Are screw-in hinge pins superior to push-in pins? I believe they are. Can anyone explain to me why not, or why push ins are just as good?

I think a best-quality gun should have intercepting safety sears. Why? Because a best-quality gun should do all it can to ensure the user's safety. Can anyone here argue against this logic?

However, I used to think a Best-quality gun had to have chopperlump bbls. But I've seen a number of Bosses and H&H Royals without them. Does this mean these guns are not Bests? I don't know. I've talked to gunmakers about this. The don't think there's any advantage to choppers.

Anyway...


OWD

I am sure Mr. MacNaughton[sp?] and Mr. Brown feel pain, too. No intercepting sears means not Best ? Does that mean there were no Best hammerguns ?

As to comparing guns to a 1920 Boss for Best status, some Boss guns do not compare to other Boss guns in fit and finish. They weren't stocked to the fences until ca. 1900 or a bit later. Maybe they should change their motto to Best Guns only Sometimes.