doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Curious proof mark on an H&H Royal...

H&H12bore;

Thank you for your most informative update on H&H Royal date of manufacture. Your data floods the subject with light. I need to make a note in my H&H book. What ejector system(inventor) do your early dipped edge Royals use?

Kindest Regards;
Bushveld.

The H and H serial no. records are not the easiest to read. After the reader gets the definition of Guns and rifles and Paradox in his head, it becomes a bit more clear. Dallas' book lists Guns in the 16,000-16,999 range as beng built in 1893-1897. He lists guns built after 16562 as being built 1896-1897. I am assuming these "Guns" could be shotguns of more than one grade, but that may not be true as serial No's from 17,000-18000 list "Guns and Rifles" from 1893-1905. Rook Rifles of this period are in another numbering sequence. For sure, factory records record my gun , with both sets of barrels, in the 1896-1897 period. I don't have the Factory Ledger date on the top of my head, but remember 1896. As far as a dovetail sign, or a chopperlump line, I cannot see either on either set of my barrels, but that does not mean either might not be there. Maybe the fit is too good to see.

Various copies of the H and H production numbers list 20,000-22,449 as "Royal" Guns made in 1898-1900. The progression goes on from there, labeling the serial no. groups for "Royal" Guns.

It might be interesting to see some examples of "Guns" in the 16000-16999 range which were not Royals. It would also be interesting to hear about "Guns" in the 17000-18000 range and see what type they are. Anyone looking in their safe or at old auction catalogs ?

Daryl;

In the past where I could not see a dovetail or chopper lump joint, removed the extractors from the barrels and then in almost all occasions where they were chopper lump barrels could see the centre line joint where the chopper lumps were brazed.

Bushveld

Steve, here is what I see. Is this the "round bar barrels' OWD has seen and seen mentioned ? Much like the Bonehill Patent used on their higher quality guns, but some differences.

Bushveld

Actually.........None

They are both extractors. not a big fan of ejectors.

H&H

#14018 "Royal Ejector / Patent No 11623"; completed in 1891.

With kind regards,
Jani

That type of dove tail is known in the trade as "through lump". It requires more fitting and careful attention than the standard dove tail. More addaptable to heavy wildfowling guns as it was not favoured in light game guns as it requires wider action and barrels are not as easily balanced and lightened as otherwise can be attained from typical dove tail lump and of course the chopper lump.

In heavy load wildfowling applications the through lump allows (as in your photo) the drilling of the extractor holes with little if any removal of metal on the barrels, providing much wall area to absorb chamber pressure.

I have no doubt that you are all correct that any dogmatic use of Donald's numbering is risky. I suspect that this may be down to a variety of issues. One is the holding back of consecutive numbers for a pair that might be ordered at a later date. Also the delay between the order and delivery and the construction of guns for 'stock' may have messed up the numbering.
Since my dating interest as a importer to the US is in the antique status of guns, I use the early numbering blocks as a negative rather than a positive indicator of age ie if it is numbered higher than 16000 it is very likely post 1898.
The only way to be certain is to request the record from H&H who I have always found to be extremely helpful and efficient.