doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Why do people 'butcher' barrels....?

1. The gun belongs to you. You may burn it in the fireplace if you wish. It is your right I believe.

2. As far as collector value I think original chokes and original forcing cones and original chambers add value to a gun I am considering for purchase.

3. I have old doubles with less than full chokes that taper all the way to the muzzle. I think they are original. I will not change them.

4. After the chokes, forcing cones, and chambers have been messed with I don't hesitate to mess with them some more.

5. I don't have to alter every gun I own to make it an optimum upland game gun. 99% of my hunting is upland.

Best,

Mike

I have never seen more than a small handful of old US guns that hadn't already been messed with, most pretty severely. Once it's been messed with, what's the point in preserving something that's less than useful (i.e. a grossly ill-fitting stock or ridiculously tight chokes)? Really, what harm is done if I take a Fox with lengthened chambers, a poorly fitted replacement stock and a blued action--and put it in working order, do a nicer job of (re)stocking it, refinish the metal and make it choked for the way I'll use it?
Seeing as I have no interest in owning one simply for the sake of owning one, short of a deal too-good to pass up--meaning I could make a significant amount of money on it overnight--I would never buy an original-condition fox or parker because it would be less than useless to me as I need a very long LOP, a high stock and open chokes...I use my guns--what good is an original condition gun with full and fuller chokes and a 14" stock with 3" of drop to a woodcock hunter that shoots a 16" LOP? With that in mind I happily pay way less $ for butchered guns and then "rebutcher" them further because they are more valuable to me that way. You can keep your precious patina--show me patina on a 90 year old gun that has a stock even close to fitting me and I'll be the first one in line to gush about how nostalgic and gentlemanly the patina makes me feel.

What I want to know is why people think they have anything at all to say about what people "shouldn't" do to a SxS? I can see getting your knickers in a twist about altering something that's truly never been touched and is a good-condition collectors item--but on the previously refinished field grade stuff that I mostly see (and that I buy)--spare me the sermon about what is and isn't "right" on my gun.

Frankly, I like some of my upland guns to have tight chokes...some tight and some not so tight. If I bougth a vintage American gun with tight chokes, I'd just as soon leave them as is and use it when I wanted tight chokes.

Question: How do you know what the original chokes and chambers were? I recently acquired a 12ga Ithaca Flues, Grade 2, made in 1920. On that one I do know that the chokes are original, because they're stamped 0 and 2 (cyl/mod) on the flats (although Ithaca was the only maker of classic doubles to do that)--and that's what my bore and choke gauge currently reads. Chambers are 2 3/4", and do not look as if they've been lengthened. (If they have, the forcing cones haven't been lengthened to the extent that they are on many modern guns.) So I asked Walter Snyder to check the factory records for me, which he was kind enough to do. No indication of original chamber length, and Walt indicated that they might well have been factory 2 3/4" from that time period. Similar story on my Army & Navy 12's, on which I have the order sheet from the A&N log book: no indication of original choke, and the Brits didn't stamp choke markings on the barrel flats.

So, assuming the job is done properly . . . who's to know, in most cases, whether chokes and chambers have been altered??

1. Great detailed books are available for each major maker's guns...in these books, usually are schematics of how the maker's cut their chamber's and forcing cones, with dimensions...........the information age elctronically as well.....

2. Most older classics (pre 1930) had shorter, sharper forcing cones, as compared to modern shotguns, for ammunition of that day........so, if you do your homework and are looking at a classic gun, and you find long tapered forcing cones, it is likely the gun has been ground on.....

3. If the forcing cones have been ground up it is most likely someone altered the chokes as well......and possibly some honing also.....?

4. If the proper loads are shot, the older uncut guns shoot fabulous.....

Chuck H., thanks for the great idea. I've been doing that for fifty years, and loving it.

Glad to help you out, Murph.

Almost all pre-1913 LC Smiths were factory std. bored Full in each barrel- "The experts choke" was their ad slogan- But, you could order whatever choking in each barrel if you wanted other than Full (per my 1907 Catalog)-- also in the Brophy book on Smith specs- the choking NBD- taper, breech dia. and ID at muzzle(s) is given for the 12-16 and 20 bores--

I like a tight choke for the second barrel- I had Buck Hamlin opne the right barrel from Full to mod- on My 2E and 3E 12's- BUT my "pet" for crushing high pigeons and pheasants at Tower shoots is my 2E 12 that was rebarreled in 1927 with a 32" set of Nitro barrels with factory ventilated rib- both barrels full and with 3" chambers (longer forcing cone area perhaps?"

That "Mini-Bo-Whooper" will devastate birds in flight (if its pointed right) with any load I care to run through the tubes- older papers, Federal premium copper loads, nickel live pigeon loads, AA Handicap Trap loads- I'd sooner have needles stuck into my eyes that have those sweetheart barrels "Altered"0 that gun at an even 8 lbs. is a "Money Gun"--

I agree. It's not so much nostalgia or originalitis as it is a desire to shoot a gun with plenty of choke for the kind of hunting I do. I like doubles and older guns, but so many have been opened that it's getting hard to buy old guns that shoot the way I want them to. Once the choke has been reamed out, it's kinda hard to put it back. IC/M is not useful for me in an upland gun.

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I think a lot of this depends upon the cover we hunt and our individual shooting styles. For me, F/F or M/F is not useful for my upland hunting which consists of dove in agricultural fields, and quail or woodcock in woodlands or thick cover. We do not have the larger birds like pheasant or the prairie grouse in my area.

I seem to do fine with modified choke on long shots at small dove-size targets where a few shot do the job. I can't hit'em up close with full choke, and if I do I tear thm up too badly.

The terrain I hunt and my shooting style, which is niether stylish nor terribly effective dictate a preference for IC/Mod. Western hunters and crack shots certainly won't agree with my choice...Geo