doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lead Shot Ban in Montana

I think if you want to outlaw lead for upland hunting, go out and harvest the wild birds and study them. See if there is any impact directly to the point.
Do a study directly on the wild birds harvested during the hunting season for example. It should be easy to harvest the gizzards and the liver at the game check points.
My common sense tells me that the results will show no significant impact of lead on the health of the birds. But I can be grossly wrong. I would accept it should I see the PROOF.
But when you come up with such proposal and claim studies that don't have much relevance to the current topic I will not accept it. It is ludicrous.

RHD45, you may have missed my post with figures on the Iowa eagle population, straight from the DNR. Eagles in Iowa are no longer either threatened or endangered. It's a shame that the occasional eagle may die from eating lead, just like it's a shame that the occasional deer dies when hit by a car. But because our eagles are no longer threatened or endangered, we need to focus on what's happening to the SPECIES as a whole, not individual birds. If we start worrying about individual birds within an otherwise healthy species population . . . well then, where does that concern take us, logically, if we follow it? It takes us to the point that we'd better hang up our guns, because we're killing things with lead too--and darn it, I guess we ought to stop.

There are 100 times as many nesting pairs of eagles in Iowa as there were 25 years ago or so. Why are rehabilitators encountering the occasional eagle that's sick from having ingested lead, when we never used to hear about that? Well, we never used to hear about that because eagles in Iowa were so doggone rare! Now we have lots, and the population is growing. If the population is growing, whatever is happening to the occasional individual bird may be unfortunate, but it should only be of serious concern when it threatens the population as a whole. That's far from the case with eagles in Iowa becoming sick and/or dying from ingesting lead. Rehabilitators express their concern because, as rehabilitators, they work with individual animals. But if we all adopt that attitude, then we're in the process of standing modern wildlife management on its head.

You want to worry about something in Iowa? Worry about the decline in our pheasant numbers, which is not due to lead poisoning but rather to a combination of habitat loss and weather. Worry about the ruffed grouse we used to have in the NE corner of the state, but scarcely have any these days because most of our timber is mature and they need young regrowth. Worry about the quail we used to have in good numbers in the southern part of the state but don't any more, again due to habitat loss. Worry about species that can be shown to be in decline, and why they are declining--not about individual mortality of birds in an otherwise healthy, growing population. Even if they happen to be eagles.

EXACTLY!

L.Brown, I agree completely with you and was just reporting the news as I read it. I remember the first time I saw an eagle in Blackhawk county. It was on Dec.6 1972 and I didn't see another one for years and now if I want I can go down by the Cedar river and one will probably be along soon.I am really worried about the loss of riparian habitat in Iowa and elsewhere. The numbers of song birds have dropped drastically and we still see wood lots cut out for some strip mall that will be out of business in 10 years.
The pheasant numbers have me puzzled as I can go to good habitat and still not see even a track!The "Big Marsh" near Parkersburg used to be full of pheasant and for the last 10 years or so it is rare to see more than a few,if any.Quail used to be common in southern Iowa where my dad grew up and now they are practically gone. We definitely need to be planting more young trees and encourage weedy fencerows and brushy draws but more and more farmers are tiling the waterways and farming every available acre. Much more of an immediate problem than lead shot by and standard.

Here are some more studies:

Keel, M.K., Davidson, W.R., Doster, G.L., Lewis, L.A., 2002. Northern bobwhite and lead shot deposition in an upland habitat.
Arch. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 43, 318–322.
Kendall, R.J., Lacher, T.E., Bunck, C., Daniel, B., Driver, C.E., Grue,
C.E., Leighton, F., Stansley, W., Watanabe, P.G., Whitworth, M.,
1996. An ecological risk assessment of lead shot exposure in
non-waterfowl avian species: upland game birds and raptors.
Environ. Toxicol. Chem. 15, 4–20.
Johnsgard, P.A., 1983. Cranes of the World. Croom Helm, London.
Jones, J.C., 1939. On the occurrence of lead shot in stomachs of
North American gruiformes. J. Wildlife Manage. 3, 353–357.
Franson, J.C., Thomas, N.J., Smith, M.R., Robbins, A.H., Newman,
S., McCartin, P.C., 1996. A retrospective study of post-mortem
findings in red-tailed hawks. J. Raptor Res. 30, 7–14.
Frenzel, R.W., Anthony, R.G., 1989. Relationship of diets and
environmental contaminants in wintering bald eagles. J.
Wildlife Manage. 53, 792–802.
Garcı´a-Ferna´ndez, A.J., Sa´nchez-Garcı´a, J.A.,
Jime´nez-Montalba´ n, P., Luna, A., 1995. Lead and cadmium
in wild birds in south-eastern Spain. Environ. Toxicol.
Chem. 14, 2049–2058.
Gill, C.E., Langelier, K.M., 1994. Acute lead poisoning in bald
eagle secondary to bullet ingestion. Can. Vet. J. 35, 303–304.
Gonza´ lez, L.M., Hiraldo, F., 1988. Organochlorine and heavy metal
contamination in the eggs of the Spanish imperial eagle
(Aquila (heliaca) adalberti) and accompanying changes in
eggshell morphology and chemistry. Environ. Pollut. 51,
241–258.
Grandjean, P., 1976. Possible effect of lead on eggshell thickness
in kestrels 1874–1974. Bull. Environ. Contam. Toxicol.
16, 101–106.
Grasman, K.A., Scanlon, P.F., 1995. Effects of acute lead ingestion
and diet on antibody and T-cell-mediated immunity in
Japanese quail. Arch. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 28, 161–167.

This is the abstract of the Keel study, the first of the last list:

"Abstract. We estimated total lead shotshell pellets expended,
resultant pellet availability near soil surface, and the frequency
of pellet ingestion by northern bobwhites (Colinus virginianus)
attributable to nearly a quarter century of bobwhite hunting on
a 202-ha upland habitat at Tall Timbers Research Station, Leon
County, Florida. A total of 7,776 shots were fired, resulting in
the expenditure of approximately 4.5 million pellets (
22,519/
ha). Sixteen of 235 (6.8%) soil samples collected in 1989 and
1992 contained one or two pellets. Soil samples indicated that
approximately 7,800 pellets/ha (about 35% of the projected
24-year deposition) were within 2.54 cm of the soil surface.
Pellet ingestion by bobwhites was evaluated by examining 241
gizzards collected from 1989–92. Three bobwhites (1.3%) had
ingested pellets (x
 1.3 pellets). No instances of suspected
lead poisoning were noted in bobwhites over the 24-year period.
Sport hunting of wild bobwhite populations on upland
habitats appears to produce a low potential for lead poisoning
compared to lead deposition in association with waterfowl and
dove hunting."

Grouse Gay, I don't beleive you have a zebra hide table cloth, I don't believe you had venison for dinner last night, and I sure don't believe you have a gal. This really is about you, because it is you who is trying to use pseudoscience in order to ban the use of lead ammo. You have been refuted on so many levels, and have not yet answered the simple question of where wild game birds are in decline soley due to the ingestion of lead shot. I suppose I could Google "plastic", "Plastic toxicity", "burning plastic", etc., and come up with thousands of results that show how our use of plastic is killing us due to the phthalates, dioxin, and so forth that is a byproduct of plastic production and burning. Then I could push for a ban on plastic shotshells and plastic gunstocks. But I don't. Then there's you... The all around outdoorsman... hunting, shooting, flinging tons of lead on trap ranges, going home and eating venison off of a zebra tablecloth with your gal. All the while disseminating bullshit studies you haven't read and could not comprehend in an attempt to ban lead ammo, which would severely curtail the shooting sports. Nice try. Kind of reminds me of John Kerry trying to pawn himself off as a pro-hunting, pro-shooting guy by talking about "deer hunting with his trusty 12 gauge shotgun, crawling around on his belly to sneak up on them" Then there was his "goose hunt" in, of all places, the democratic stronghold of Mahoning County, Ohio. He was pictured on the front page of the Youngstown Vindicator, wearing camo and carrying two dead geese that no one was permitted to witness him shoot. Two geese, almost certainly killed by someone else, sacrificed to help propel an avowed anti-gunner to the White House. Fortunately, voting hunters didn't buy either lie any more than we buy your lies. But it illustrates the lengths you anti-gun PETA types will go to in order to perpetrate your true agenda. I wonder what your girlfriend, "Bruce", will say when "she" reads this Grouse Gay?

Kinda makes you wonder whether Ben actually READS the research he posts, doesn't it? Like I said earlier, tossing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Tall Timbers, which is like a preserve in terms of shot fall . . . 1.3% of 241 birds ingested lead. And that last sentence is pretty much the same thing MT FWP admitted in their document--even though they're pushing for further lead restrictions.

Restricting lead for upland hunting in areas not frequented by waterfowl is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Hey Keith:

You gotta admit, that was a pretty nice sidelock Kerry took goose hunting (an H&H, or a cheap knock off Arrieta?), and undoubtedly charged with non-toxic shot. If even John Kerry can figure it out, why can't you? I think in the above post you make an excellent case for family planning. In mammals lead toxicosis can also cause high blood pressure... take care! But I digress. This discussion ain't about me, or you, or John Kerry.

It is about birds and lead.

Larry, as you can see I'm providing a wide range of citations here, whether they support my viewpoint or not. I think it is important that people review all the information that is out there. This is why I've been pushing for a review of the information by our state game agency here (not the EPA, or DEQ, or PETA... isn't the latter some kinda Greek sandwich?).

I'm not an expert, and I'm not saying this is what happens with certainty, but an alternate explanation to the observation that the detected occurance of consumed lead shot in harvested upland birds is generally <10% is that poisoned birds die before hunters enter the field, say in Montana anytime during the months of January through August. Wouldn't such non-harvest mortality cause lower occurance in "healthy" birds harvested by hunters?

Speaking of "healthy" birds, how many of us have shot clearly underweight birds? Or birds that flush late, or won't flush at all and our dogs catch them? I would posit that any of us who might have shot hundreds of birds over our years of hunting have seen this. We often might dismiss these as "cripples" even if we don't see wounds. They certainly could also be suffering from something else, after all every bird dies of something. But at least some of these might be birds sick from lead ingestion. Maybe we should take these odd birds to an expert to examine and try to figure it out instead of disposing of them however we do.

I'll post you some more studies later...

Grouse Gay, My blood pressure is typically around 100/60, give or take 5 points, so maybe I need to move to the city where lead in people and birds is problematic... not in rural areas where upland game is shot as you suggest. You obviously missed my point in comparing you to John Kerry. The only thing he "gets" is voting consistently through his career for gun control legislation. His fake goose hunt was a staged event in an area where a multi-millionaire would not go for a hunt. But there was concern by sportsmen in this strongly Democratic area that a Kerry presidency might lead to more gun control. Kerry did not use any non-tox because he did not shoot those birds, despite what the propaganda photos were intended to portray. Reporters asked to accompany his entourage on the hunt, but had to wait, hear a couple gunshots in the distance, then see the new pro-gun, pro-hunting Kerry emerge triumphantly carrying his geese. I was trying to point out that he is a fake and a liar like you. But you were too stupid to get that point the first time around. Nothing to get the old blood pressure up there. I just want to join in with so many others here in exposing you for what you are, and are not, lest anyone be on the fence or not consider the long term ramifications of what you propose. I prefer not to use nice kind little terms like "troll" for a filthy fake who is trying a sneaky backdoor approach to weaken the Second Amendment. You go on proving your anti-lead ammo zealotry citing a portion of some purported study stating that less than 10% of game birds harvested contain ingested lead. Your immediate and predictable explanation is that all the others must have died and decomposed from some new form of extrene rapid acting lead poisoning in the months before hunting season. You go on to "posit" that any birds which flush late, or not at all, or are underweight must be filled with poisonous lead shot. You expect that we should take our birds to an "expert" to have an autopsy done to eliminate crippling, parasites, disease, or plain old age as a cause of their lethargy. How many bird autopsies have you paid for? What were the results? I know the answer. You have had none done. But that doesn't deter you from posting your gay and shrill belief that we should all be petitioning our game departments to ban the use of lead ammo. You and I both know that lead ammo is not a problem compared to the mercury already in the environment, and the mercury that will be entering the waste-stream from increased use of CFL light bulbs. But you, the liar who masquerades as on of us, continues to push lead ammo bans. We see who you really are Grouse Gay. As far as "family planning" goes, I have zero tolerance for gun controllers, either the straightforward types or the "backdoor boys" (pun intended) like you. So I wish someone would do an extremely late tem abortion on you.