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Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
AmarilloMike #173894 01/11/10 02:58 PM
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I copied a post I made several months ago in reference to a study about urban and rural pigeon blood levels:

ABSTRACT
Necropsy of a 7-yr-resident peregrine falcon (Falco peregrinis) from Baltimore showed a Pseudomonas infection involving the pharynx as the immediate cause of death. Concentrations of lead in liver and kidney measured 0.74 and 1.40 ppm, respectively. A survey of lead exposure was performed on 40 urban rock doves (Columbia livia). Thirteen additional rock doves were collected from sites removed from lead contamination and served as controls. The mean concentration of lead in the blood of the urban rock doves was 0.96 ppm (range 0.29-17.0 ppm) compared to 0.05 ppm (0.01-0.07 ppm) for control birds. Ninety-eight percent (39/40) of the urban rock doves had elevated concentrations of lead in their blood, while 27% (11/40) had sublethal concentrations. None of the control birds had increased concentrations of lead in their blood. Concentrations of lead in liver and kidney of 13 urban rock doves were 3.48 ppm and 9.53 ppm, respectively, compared to concentrations of 0.43 ppm and 0.50 ppm for four control rock doves. From these data a mean total concentration of lead per rock dove was calculated at 4.60 ppm for urban birds and 0.33 ppm for control birds.

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/2/238

If I read it correctly the urban dove had many multiples more lead concentration in their bodies than the rural doves. It would seem to me that Grouse Guy's efforts would have more effect on Peregrine conservation if he talked to the urban gangs about switching from lead bullets to steel or copper. Is there an urban gang BBS?


Last edited by AmarilloMike; 01/11/10 02:58 PM.

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Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
AmarilloMike #173897 01/11/10 03:18 PM
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Bozeman, Mt.
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Mike, thank you. Just as we thought, uncontrolled studies made by someone paid to make them and someone probably with an agenda. I know many of the WMAs in Montana and have hunted in and around quite a few. They are just a speck in the landscape of Montana, but they would be a "First Step" in much larger changes affecting us all, without a spec of proper science. I think you are dead on when you note Grouse Guy [Ben Deeble] bragging that he just deposited 4 pounds of lead shot at his shooting range "where it should be". Best I can tell his range, and other ranges, would soon be targets of the "professionals" like Ben. Don't think for a minute there is not a much larger agenda for a "small few". They need to be stopped and the funding they so dearly seek, needs to be directed more properly. The NRA fights this type of nibbling at your rights all of the time. The nibbles add up eventually.

I also see the question you raised about the effect of the Monsanto Roundup Ready program and the loss of proper habitat. I have no proof on that, but just observations over the last dozen years. It does make me wonder.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 01/11/10 03:38 PM.
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Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
AmarilloMike #173898 01/11/10 03:29 PM
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So let me review what the study says:
They raised upland birds in a farm and then released them on an island where heavy hunting and clay shooting had been going on with lots of lead on the ground. Then they shot some birds and a small to fair number had lead pellets in their gizzards. What is the surprize here?
How does this situation apply to general upland hunting?
Most of Montana is not an area heavily polluted with lead.
No news, no correlation!
Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
Sliver #173899 01/11/10 03:35 PM
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all of the science ben states is funded, you have to look at the "results of the science" and then see where the money came from for the study, this has way more to do with the results than good science.they compare apples and oranges(as sliver stated).so call the montana dnr and oppose this lead ban until there is unbiased science(you have to follow the money) MC
Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
mc #173916 01/11/10 05:48 PM
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Mike, I haven't a dog in this hunt---just a lot of curiosity.

"Again, what about urban pigeons having a higher lead content than rural pigeons? Where are they ingesting lead shot."

Wouldn't urban pigeons be exposed to more lead from exhaust emissions?
Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
Grouse Guy #173917 01/11/10 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Grouse Guy


One-hundred twenty-three gizzards from upland game birds (chukar, Alectoris chukar; and common pheasant, Phasianus colchicus) harvested by hunters in southern Ontario, Canada, were examined for lead pellet ingestion by manual examination of gizzard contents and by radiography. Lead pellets were found to be ingested by chukars (6/76; 8%) and the common pheasant (16/47; 34%).

Couple questions relative to the above:

1. Did an examination of the birds shot show them to be in other than normal, healthy condition? If they had been caught and held in captivity, is the researcher who did the study suggesting that the lead found in their gizzards would have proven fatal to them? Once more, we have birds that we know for a fact died from "lead poisoning"--but they were on the receiving end of that lead as it was fired from a shotgun. Whatever lead they had in their gizzards was obviously not the cause of death.

2. There is a population of wild chukar in southern Ontario? That's a LONG ways east of the nearest wild chukar populations of which I'm aware, and it's not really chukar country. So . . . are we talking game farm birds, which means lead concentrations would obviously be significantly higher than in the wild?

The very cogent point made by MT FWP is that lead concentrations in upland settings tend to be at a very low level. Hard to believe you'd get that many birds ingesting lead from private (or even public) land where wild upland birds are hunted. A preserve setting would be closer to something like a field heavily hunted for doves, and the likelihood of lead ingestion much higher.

Ben, if you're going to quote studies based on GAME FARM birds, assuming you're making the least effort to be objective and honest, you might so state. After all, what we're talking about is banning lead on WMA's in MT, where--quite obviously--lead concentration in the form of shot fall is going to be at a significantly lower level. Shall we all talk about apples, rather than apples vs oranges here? It'd make for a significantly more intelligent and useful discussion.




Woops--My comments start with "Couple questions". Sorry about that.

Last edited by L. Brown; 01/11/10 06:01 PM.
Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
King Brown #173923 01/11/10 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: King Brown
Mike, I haven't a dog in this hunt---just a lot of curiosity.

"Again, what about urban pigeons having a higher lead content than rural pigeons? Where are they ingesting lead shot."

Wouldn't urban pigeons be exposed to more lead from exhaust emissions?


I don't know.

I do know in cities there are:

Smelters, both abandoned and operating (ASARCO closed a smelter 1-1/2 miles north of my house about four decades ago.

Lead battery factories, both abandoned and operating

Gangs shooting lead bullets.

Water towers with lead paint on them. A few years ago they stripped the lead paint off of a water tower 1/4 mile from my house. A windstorm came, blew away the tarps, and little chips of blue paint could be found swirling in the wind in the parking lot at my office.

I am pretty sure there is lead based paint on the outside of my house, built in 1923.

I am pretty sure there is lead based paint on the inside of my house.

I grew up in a plumbing company and we used to make lead joints in cast iron drainage, waste, and vent pipes.

We also made lead drum trap fittings and wiped lead for the plumbing under the kitchen sink upon occasion.

We used to use a lead flashing where the sewer vent piping penetrated the roof.

A lead shower pan in the bottom of the shower and below the tile used to be universal.

Until a few years ago all copper water piping was soldered with lead solder. It is almost a sure thing that the copper water piping in my house is soldered with lead solder.

Until a few years ago the kitchen sink faucets in my house had lead in the metal used to make them. They wore out and the new ones are required by law to have no lead.

So you tell me where the lead in those urban pigeons came from?

Add mining and lead shot to this list and you can pretty much use the same list to determine where lead in grouse livers is coming from.

And if you eliminate one of the urban sources of lead will the the lead levels go down in urban pigeons?

And though lead in gas is now outlawed (except aviation gas) certainly there is residual lead everywhere automobiles went.

Best,

Mike

Last edited by AmarilloMike; 01/11/10 07:36 PM.

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Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
AmarilloMike #173927 01/11/10 06:35 PM
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Mike,

It sounds like we should test your gizzard and liver, too. Maybe I can get a grant for this?
Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
Sliver #173930 01/11/10 06:45 PM
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NOW it all adds up, ole huntin' buddy! Why, after all that lead you're still a perfectly normal person. Here's picture proof that lead is harmless.

AmarilloMike dove hunting:


When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
Re: Lead Shot Ban in Montana
AmarilloMike #173935 01/11/10 07:21 PM
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I've got over 14,000 PIC flight hours, remove the 8,000 or so turbo-jet & turbine hours and that leaves me with about 6,000 hours of pumping lead into the atmosphere with 100 LL & 100/130 octane fuel and some 115/145 in the old days......wonder how many birds-critters and enviornmentalists I've poisened over the years...?

Doug
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