doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lead Shot Ban in Montana

Grouse Guy:

One can reasonably be skeptical that lead shot in the act of upland hunting is significantly harming wildlife.

What chaps my ass is your implication that skeptics willfully choose to ignore data and/or resist any study of the issue. There is nothing wrong with taking a skeptical view. The skeptical view is actually the more rational view.

The burden of proof should rightfully fall on the party calling for changing the regulations. I don't need to definitively prove lead does no harm, you need to definitively prove it does serious harm if you want it banned.

Localized studies using small sample sizes are not anywhere close to definitive proof. Association between lead shot and waterfoul mortality does not prove lead shot used in upland hunting does harm. Police ranges have nothing to do with a hunting debate. If the studies proved what you think they may, the State/Feds would rightfully ban lead shot without seeking any public input. The opportunity for public input is the red herring.

What we are being asked to do is accept a lead shot ban because it could possibly maybe harm wildlife, and not being positive either way, we will take the safe route and ban lead. You want me to fork over $3 a shot on this basis?

Finally, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with WR Grace! Why are you even bringing Grace up in the debate? To pull the old retorical trick of associating those on the other side of this argument with industrial polluters, and demonstrating your own ethical superiority?

Well guess what, people in the science professions are no more or less ethical than chemical manufactures, or anyone else. State wildlife officials don't de facto get the high ground either.

If you fund a study you can generally get whatever results you pay for. Industry trade groups do this all the time.

The people looking for a correlation betwen lead shot and wildlife mortality have a vested interest in finding such correlation because they accepted the funding dollars. They would also love the recognition.

No one or group is perfectly, which is why hard science is rightfully adversarial and the burden of proof falls on the party calling for a change in the prevaling thinking. Skeptics have a role in reaching the truth.

Why are you calling skeptics spouters of ingorant hogwash? I respectfully do not think you are owed any appology.

Here is some science relevant to the lead issue... Want more?

Walter, H., Reese, K.P., 2003. Fall diet of chukars (Alextoris chukar)
in Eastern Oregon and discovery of ingested lead pellets.West.
N. Am. Naturalist 63, 402–405.
Wayland, M., Bollinger, T., 1999. Lead exposure and poisoning in
bald eagles and golden eagles in the Canadian prairie
provinces. Environ. Pollut. 104, 341–350.
Wayland, M., Wilson, L.K., Elliott, J.R., Miller, J.E., Bollinger, T.,
McAdie, M., Langelier, K., Keating, J., Froese, J.M.W., 2003.
Mortality, morbidity, and lead poisoning of eagles in western
Canada 1986–1998. J. Raptor Res. 37, 8–18.
Weir, D., Hanson, A., 1989. Food habits of great horned owls (Bubo
virginianus) in the Northern Taiga of the Yukon Territory and
Alaska. Can. Field Nat. 103, 12–17.
Wiemeyer, S.N., Jurek, R.M., Moore, J.F., 1986. Environmental
contaminants in surrogates, foods, and feathers of California
condors (Gymnogyps californianus). Environ. Monit. Assess. 6,
91–111.
Wiemeyer, S.N., Krynitsky, A.J., Wilbur, S.R., 1983. Environmental
contaminants in tissues, foods, and feces of California
condors. In: Wilbur, S.R., Jackson, J.A. (Eds.), Vulture Biology
and Management. University of California Press, Los Angeles,
pp. 4727–4739.
Wiemeyer, S.N., Scott, J.M., Anderson, M.P., Bloom, P.H., Stafford,
C.J., 1988. Environmental contaminants in California condors.
J. Wildlife Manage. 52, 238–247.
Windingstad, R.M., Kerr, S.M., Locke, L.N., Hunt, J.J., 1984. Lead
poisoning of sandhill cranes (Grus canadensis). Prairie Nat. 16,
21–24.
Wobester, G., Wobester, A.G., 1992. Carcass disappearance and
estimation of mortality in a simulated die-off of small birds. J.
Wildlife Dis. 28, 548–554.
Work, T.M., Smith, M.R., 1996. Lead exposure in Laysan albatross
adults and chicks in Hawaii: prevalence, risk factors, and
biochemical effects. Arch. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 31,
115–119.

Ben,
Go back and re-read Larry's post....There is no conclusive evidence and there is not likely to be that lead used for upland hunting has a significant negative impact on the environment. You have an agenda and it could not be more clear. There are enough folks out there trying to limit our opportunities with out help from "one of our own". The last part in quotes is highly suspect.....do you actually hunt Ben?

Eagles? Tell me it ain't so, Ben! They were used as a "poster bird" when we banned lead shot for waterfowl. And guess what? It WORKED! Eagles have made a remarkable recovery, likely helped by both the lead shot ban on waterfowl (eagles tend to hang around water a lot, and eat a lot of carrion) and banning DDT. Assuming they were once threatened by secondary ingestion of lead when they ate unrecovered waterfowl, they're clearly not threatened now. We're seeing them all over here in Iowa, in places where eagles hadn't been seen for decades. And we're seeing far more of them in places where they have always gathered, like along the Mississippi River and around our large reservoirs.

Noted ballistician Tom Roster did a study using steel shot on pheasants. His shooters were experienced hunters with good dogs, and the test was conducted on preserve pheasants--which almost anyone with experience hunting both wild and preserve birds will tell you are far easier to put in the bag than wild birds. They ended up with a wounding loss rate of over 12%. I've kept very careful records for a very long time. I don't claim to be a world class shot, but my wounding loss rate on pheasants, wild birds only, shooting lead shot, is less than half that figure. Roster, who's examined hundreds (if not thousands) of waterfowl killed with steel, also noticed that there's more of a feather balling problem with pheasants than with ducks. So . . . since MT FWP says that lead shot in low use situations (that'd be pretty much all upland hunting, except perhaps doves on public areas) isn't an environmental concern, are we going to end up with more birds that are wounded and unrecovered with steel than the few we might save that would die from ingesting lead?

Interesting that the MN Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee and MT FWP must not consider the "science" you reference to be germaine to the subject of a lead shot ban on upland birds. Can you explain why that is?

Larry and SKB:

Shouting to the mountaintops about a one-liner in a perfunctory briefing note written by a harried staffer at Montana FWP, an agency that has done virtually no study of the lead issue or literature in part because of energetic deniers like those I've cited, is hardly worth taking the time to type about.

Also Larry's hypothesis that live chukar being found with lead shot in their gizzards is "good news" meaning lead must be harmless is a novel hypothesis. Obviously he hasn't read any of the literature proving such in almost all instances causes mobidity and mortality. I'll post some of that later.

Also, this isn't a conversation about me. Note my earlier points on the topic.

Here is some more science....

Clark, A.J., Scheuhammer, A.M., 2003. Lead poisoning in
upland-foraging birds of prey in Canada. Ecotoxicology 12,
23–30.
Clausen, B., Wolstrup, C., 1979. Lead poisoning in game from
Denmark. Dan. Rev. Game Biol. 11, 1–22.
Craig, T.H., Connelly, J.W., Craig, E.H., Parker, T.L., 1990. Lead
concentrations in golden and bald eagles. Wilson Bull. 102,
130–133.
CSTEE, Scientific Committee on Toxicity, Ecotoxicity and the
Environment, 2003. Opinion on the report on Risks to Health
and the Environment Related to the Use of Lead in Products.
Health and Consumer Protection Directorate of the European
Commission, Brussels.
Custer, T.W., Franson, J.C., Pattee, O.H., 1984. Tissue lead
distribution and hematologic effects in American kestrels
(Falco sparverius) fed biologically incorporated lead. J. Wildlife
Dis. 20, 39–43.
Custer, T.W., Mulhern, B.L., 1983. Heavy metal residues in
pre-fledging black-crowned night-herons from three
Atlantic Coast colonies. Bull. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 30,
178–185.

Ryan F,

'Thanks' for your cogent remarks that get right to the 'nuts' of this whole issue.

Although a necessary evil, I, too, have come to understand public comment periods for the 'red herrings' they often are: The respondent feels better for having gotten it off his or her chest, the agency feigns altruism for ostensibly giving them a voice, and then these same regulators do what was their intention all along. (Doubt this?, then take the time to acquaint yourselves with the 2008 CDC study of North Dakota populace's consumption of wild game vs. non-consumers).

May be time to take it to a new level in boycotting the whole system for a good while.

What would MDFWP do to make up these revenues if they lost as many upland hunters/sympathizers through this latest effort as was lost among waterfowlers to steel shot in the 1980's? (Maybe they could require license fees from all the non-consumptive users of wildlife who do little more at present than pay the salaries of folks like Deeble through their contributions.) That MDFWP recognizes the potential for hunter attrition occurring once again is evident in the inter-departmental quote supplied earlier by MTDDFAN. Take the time to read it, if you haven't.

I think it well and good if one cares to submit comments as it does have a place, but we need to do so much more if we ever hope to receive sound, irrefutable science from these people. Just exactly what those measures should be, I'm less clear on at the moment.

What with a world that is blowing itself apart faster these days than we can keep up with, I should think our bureaucratic energies and assets might be better directed.....but then, who am I?


Rob Harris

Ben Deeble, I am becoming more amused with your arguements. Mr. Harris, Brown, Ryan F. and others asked you for specific science that justifies your view. Your response is calling a Montana position as just "a perfunctory briefing note written by a harried staffer at Montana FWP". Other statements using the term "ignorant hogwash" and avoidance of specific questions asked above give your views, at best, tainted value. Arguements about Grace and trying to relate it to this discussion are rather sophomoric , as stated above.

By the way, what are your qualifications to interpret toxicology reports, and the data you index, but do not elaborate on ? I am wondering about the possibility of pandering to funding sources. I have no funding sources, but what are yours and what are those of organizations you may represent ?

Again, answer the questions asked above, if you will.

As a member of the forum living in Belgium, this topic is interesting for me, and believe me or not it is not because I have Daryl as friend that I read it we have also a total lead shot ban in our country for 2 yaers now.The lead shot ban is general and not only for waterfowl.Hunters representatives asked many times about a toxicology rapport to know exactly how much they polluted and the inpact on the environment. Well let me tell you that till now nobody came with some trustable document about our quest.But it became reality despite our justified protest.One of your gunwriters, Michael Mc Intosh mention the lead shot ban in his book "Best guns" in 1989 and his is 20 yaers ago. I can only advise all of you to keep protesting and ask to vieuw documents based on serious research, because one time the law is voted it is for ever.
Marc.

I'm not qualified other than having taken a upper level environmental toxicology course 20 years go to interpret toxicological science. Nor am I technically qualified to talk about shotgun shells other than being an avid upland hunter and target shooter. I assume the latter is adequate to talk about shotgun shells, because it seems enough for ya'all. You might note, I haven't tried to interpret the toxics science, only to supply it. I've asked for others, perhaps more qualified, to study it but ya'all don't seem to think that was a good idea either. Thank you Rob.

Nor have I ever received a dime for engaging in this discussion. All posts come from my home computer. You won't find this appearing anywhere on my professional workplan. I'm just an avid hobbiest when it come to issues lead-related. And a bird biologist. But like I said, this ain't about me....

Here is some more science and rigorous documentation of pertinant observations.... Winter is long around here. Read up!

Dutton, C.S., Bolen, E.G., 2000. Fall diet of a relict pheasant
population in North Carolina. J. Elisha Mitchell Sci. Soc. 116,
41–48.
Edens, F.W., Garlich, J.D., 1983. Lead-induced egg production
decrease in leghorn and Japanese quail hens. Poultry Sci. 62,
1757–1763.
Eisler, R., 1988. Lead hazards to fish, wildlife, and invertebrates: a
synoptic review. US Fish Wildlife Serv. Biol. Rep. 85, 1–4.
Eldeman, W.M.T., Van Beersum, I., Jans, T., 1983. Uptake of
cadmium, zinc, lead, and copper by earthworms near a
zinc-smelting complex: influence of soil pH and organic
matter. Bull. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 30, 424–427.
Elder, W.H., 1955. Fluroscope measures of hunting pressure in
Europe and North America. Trans. N. Am. Wildlife Conf. 20,
298–322.
Elliott, J.E., Langelier, K.M., Scheuhammer, A.M., Sinclair, P.H.,
Whitehead, P.E., 1992. Incidence of lead poisoning in bald
eagles and lead shot in waterfowl gizzards from British
Columbia, 1988–91. CWS Prog. Note 200. Canadian Wildlife
Service, Quebec.
Falandysz, J., Jakuczun, B., Mizera, T., 1988. Metal and
organochlorines in four female white-tailed eagles. Mar.
Pollut. Bull. 19, 521–526.
Ferrer, M., 2001. The Spanish Imperial Eagle. Lynx Editions,
Barcelona.
Ferrer, M., Penteriani, V., Balbontı´n, J., Pandolfi, M., 2003. The proportion of immature breeders as a reliable early warning
signal of population decline: evidence from the Spanish
imperial eagle in Don˜ ana. Biol. Conserv. 114, 463–466.
Finkelstein, M.E., Gwiazda, R.H., Smith, D.R., 2003. Lead poisoning
of seabirds: environmental risks from leaded paint at a
decommissioned military base. Environ. Sci. Technol. 37,
3256–3260.
Franson, J.C., Sileo, L., Pattee, O.H., Moore, J.F., 1983. Effects of
chronic dietary lead in American kestrels (Falco spaverius). J.
Wildlife Dis. 19, 110–113.

Daniels, C. 2001, Effects of Nitrous oxide on Land Mammals, Journal me vAc V1 #4
Pride, C. 1987. Country Gravity Envi. Tec 19, P.28
Hagard, M. 1998, Flourescent Light and Partridge Morbidity, Can. Wild. #7
Yearwood, T. & Harbaugh J. Couple Therapy For Hungarian Cluckers. Prairie Voice, Vol. 3
Presley, E. Bull Shooting Fun, Music review 17172
Sophamoric, M. Impressions Of A Nitwhit. AMA 1987, Pd. 17
Gulibilly, T. The Importance Of Siting Impressive Lists to Bolster Non-Factual Science, Un-Scientific Review 2009, SDH

And I can site Finkelstien, M.E (my personal favorite!) and his study found lead to be almost non-existant in sea birds...
Fakabdysz could find no heavy metals in white-tailed eagles.
Franson fed European kestels 15 grams of lead every day until they fell of their perches and 3 out of 4 broke their necks.

I've read 'em all, would you like me to present more definitive examples!!!