doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Frenchie Ideal thing....odd firing pin placement..

Bicycles, sewing machines and typewriters also. The customary MO for a "gun" manufacturer apparently. So many examples: Iver Johnson, L. C. Smith (man rather than Co.), A. H. Fox and his successors.

jack

Do we, or, do we not have positive proof that any Lunette trigger guard Ideal guns were built and proofed to the higher smokeless powder proof, be it PS or PT?

Also, I'd be hesitant to believe that ANY guns built and proofed in St. Etienne were simply stuffed with a load of something, and marked as being proofed for something else, alá Two Piper's post.

The proofhouse I visited in St. Etienne appeared to be pretty tightly run, with excellent documentation and records.

I still haven't seen positive proof that the old shopkeeper in Lyon was wrong, as of yet.

Best,
Ted

Mon cher Lapin,

I never thought I was being doubted. Posted the table so the corresponding proofmarks
could be seen.

It should be mentioned that the Idéal barrels in general (at least the few I have seen
together with the Darne barrels) are very thin and light, so it should be said that they are of
superior quality.

JC

I'm wondering if I'm a big enuf afficionado to get a sling in here from France? Probably not. Better just fake it with a utilitarian approximation. Where's Serban? Maybe he'll post about his 16 ga. restock project.

jack

WildCattle, since there's no requirement from either the Paris or St Etienne proofhouse to place a "nitro" proof stamp on a gun, that means there really is no "official" term for nitro in French. Note that the "PV" on Belgian guns stands for "poudre vive" . . . et les Belges parlent francais.

After 1914, the only smokeless powder proof available was with T.

"Armurier" . . . that's the guy who does the work. The place he works is called "une armurerie". Which, thanks to all those r's in a row, is one of the harder words in French not to stumble over.

JC,
Sorry for my confusion.
They have a representative at my home town, I will try to find more info at local musseum.
Thanks
Martin

PS: I will have to print this thread and give it a deep read. LOL.

Note Ted that I did not specifically say that St Ettienne did this. I simply said that many guns had been so proofed. This was a practise of highly respected proof houses having world wide recognition, though unfortunately I do not currently know just where to lay my hands on the particulars. You don't have to believe anything at all you don't want to, but truth is not really dependant upon your belief of it, now is it. The only point I was really making was it is not important what powder was used in proofing, only the pressures it was proofed for.
The use of black powder for smokeless proofing was merely cited as an example. Remember in these early days all shotgun propellents were quite similar in burning rates & all were rather fast & preceded the so-called "Progressive Powders" which would come later. Black Powder was a slower burning propellent than was any of the shotgun smokeless propellents of the day. A proof charge of it actually stressed the whole of the barrel "Except" the immediate chamber area more than did the smokeless charges. By the use of a heavy charge of very fine grained black it was possible to reach proper chamber pressures for an adequate proof for the smokeless & still also adequately proof the remainder of the barel for use of any charge normally placed within the gun.
I state this as "Fact", if you so desire do enough research to prove it "Wrong", but frankly I don't really care what you "Believe".
If the gun is designed to handle loads of 9k psi & a proof pressure of 12k, or 15k or what ever is desired it don't really matter if that ressure is reached by a load of black, semi-smokeless or smokeless, just as long as it is reached, is all I was really saying & the best way of assuring that is by relying on the proof house for the proper choice of a powder to accomplish their purpose.

Nothing simple here! And the vernacular doesn't help. I assumed three palms stamped on the barrel meant triple proof but actually it's double proof (9 grams bp x 2). What I thought was double proof is actually more like 1.5 proof (superieure). Four palms equates to triple proof (9x3=27 grams). 4 means 3x; 3 means 2x; 2 means 1.5. It's a wonder I can tell a cocking indy from a--ahem--linear striker!

jack

Larry,
You forget that both the powders and proofing were done by government agencies. They all used "poudre pyroxylee" as opposed to "nitro" (which has never been used in French unlike in English) or "sans fumee" or..., so there it is, the official wording. There is a strong possibility (for which I don't have a proof yet)that it is the source of the P in PS, PT etc.
My French Dictionary shows the definition of "pyroxyle" as :
"product resulting from the action of nitric acid on a substance containing cellulose (wood, paper, etc..)", which is of course the same as NitroCellulose in English.

By the way, if you read the gun description in GB, it does show that the gun is engraved with "Poudre Pyroxylee".

As for the Belgians, they are well... Belgians, and are therefore untitled to be different.
You might recall that a screw is called a pin in England. Same story.
Best regards,
WC

Two-P, I got you right the first time :-)


One should not quote oneself, should one?

JC