doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 30-06 or 9.3x74R for my only double?

I was really pretty set on a 30-06 for ease of ammo availability. Plus, living in California, there's the whole "lead bullet" ban in much of the state. So I'm assuming there will be better selection.

But seems like the 9.3x74R would be a really cool caliber, especially in a hearty double rifle.

This would probably be my only double and only plan on using in US, not Africa (although I can dream about that). Mostly for wild boar but hopefully moose, elk and bear someday. Thoughts and opinions?

Hoser-

You need to get over to nitroexpress.com and introduce yourself to the community there - and do a lot of listening.

Double rifles are in so many ways different than the 'other choices' available to the modern hunter - and they need special care and feeding.

You speak of lead-free ammunition and that you live in California.
Double rifles and monolithic solid copper bullets are not necessarily a very good combination.
Those very hard bullets can do expensive harm to double rifle barrels. There are even bullet designs which incorporate lead that are strongly NOT recommended for use in double rifles (partitions and a-frames for example) due to the unforgiving, very hard solid sections of copper in the belly of the bullets...

Before you buy a double rifle you need to prep yourself for a 'different' kind of approach to shooting and feeding your rifles.
You'll do very very well to seriously consider getting set up to handload for whatever rifle you get.

One doesn't own a double rifle for the 'cheap and available ammunition'


On caliber selection for what you describe - the 30-06 could definitely do all you need to do for your entire hunting life.
The 30-06 will have very little recoil at all, the rifles are very handy and light.
The 9.3 is a great big game cartridge, but it will have much more recoil, the rifles will be heavier.

A 30-06 double rifle would be really sweet.
If you're looking to buy new, get in contact with the maker (call Merkel for instance) and ask them if they will guarantee their rifle against damage caused by shooting solid copper bullets through it.
I'd be very interested to hear what they have to say about that.





Cheers
Tinker

I tried to register at nitroexpress.com but haven't been approved yet. I think they're having some "issues" with that.

Great input on doubles! I'm hoping modern rifles won't have any issues but I'll email a few manufacturers and see what they say. Hopefully someone here will chime in with that specific info!

Hoser-


I'll put this in very simple terms.
The topic of monometal solids in double rifles is controversial.

Here and here are a couple of threads currently in discussion over at NE

Take a look there for starters.




Cheers
Tinker

Hoser-


Something else for you to consider...

When you get set up with your new double rifle, you will at some time (hopefully sooner than later) find out what ammunition it likes best.
Once that moment passes, your job is to get stocked up on that ammunition - or to run that ammunition through a chronograph and get your loading gear together, then to duplicate it's performance through your rifle.
Load development for that rifle is then done for good.
That's the ammunition you'll run through that rifle.


Also.
The 20ga 'rifled shotgun' that's offered by Galazan, The RBL Professional, might be a really good choice for you.

It's not really a shotgun, but it is legal for shotgun-only deer hunting seasons in shotgun-only states.
It's a fully-rifled 20ga double rifle, set up specifically for modern sabot slug ammunition - and there are very effective copper-solid sabot-slug loads for the 20ga guns.
This is a new model for them, and from what I've seen 'around and about', those who have gotten theirs are quite happy with what they got, and the rifles are accurate.
The regulation of the barrels is also adjustable for different ammunition loads too.
Think on that!



Cheers
Tinker

The few I've talked with the RBL rifled 20's say they kick like an injured mule with a grudge to settle...

Steve-

Do you know if they were shooting off a bench or shooting from field hunting positions?





Guys who are accustomed to shooting single barrel rifles 'at the range' tend to do well with a bit of an adjustment period - I just can't imagine one of those little RBL guns kicking much at all.

Over on AccurateReloading one of the members recently got an RBL Professional.
He's owned/shot/hunted with double rifles for years and wanted one of them for shotgun-only seasons/states.
Here's his impression.

I've shot hot slug loads out of 20bore guns in the past - I wouldn't consider the experience very far off 'love tap' levels of recoil.
Fit means a lot too - perhaps they just didn't get measured properly for the gun or the gun wasn't built properly to their specifications.
From what I'd heard, the RBL is a custom-fit deal...





Cheers
Tinker

I read his post and it was very informative, the main thing I take away from it is he is using a light, relativly slow load. It is destined to produce less recoil. The only one I have seen here in Iowa was purchased by a friend of mine and with Hornady SST's it shot beautifully-but you paid for it he said. I have yet to shoot the gun. He was shooting with a "trigger stick" and standing up. Said the gun had tremendous muzzle blast and rise but the sst is a HOT slug. I told him to use the managed recoil buckhammer by Remington but he didn't get around to it. We are going to take a weekend this spring to regulate and tune this gun. It has wonderful asthetics and handles quite well but he didn't get it in time to do serious work with it to use during our December shotgun season. He stuck with the old reliable A-Bolt 12ga and got a nice mature doe for the freezer. I plan on posting a lengthy thread as to my personal expirience with it this spring.

Can anyone recommend a professional company that custom loads ammo for a double rifle using NORTH FORK bullets? Based on info from this thread and an email from North Fork, I think using that bullet in California is the best bet. Not a big reloader right now so would want some assistance with fully loaded ammunition.

I've seen Superior Ammunition out of SD may be of help. Any feedback on these guys?
http://www.superiorammo.com/customammunition.html

Any other recommendations?

gad custom ammo http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/
stars and stripes custom ammo http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/

I have had Superior load initial test rounds for my 450BPE. Very satisfied!!! Quick service with great product but not cheap.
Bob Jurewicz

How many of you feel that if I'm going to spend money on a double, I should get a double rifle caliber like 9.3x74R and NOT a 30-06?

Looks like due to my California location, custom loads will be needed for hunting either way (solid copper requirements in certain areas) so looks like other than cheaper fun plinking, there's no great advantage. I'm sure there's a chance that I'll go hunting and something happens to my custom ammo and I'd need to get store bought, but that sounds pretty remote.

I guess the 30-06 double rifle will be lighter in weight for easier carrying in the field. I'm really on the fence so love to hear feedback.

I have also thought about a double rifle some time in the future. Somehow a rimmed cartridge just seems like the way to go even if rimmless cartridges probably work perfectly well.

The computed recoil of a 9.3x74R in a typical 7 lb double approachs that of a 10 lb 375 H&H and seems more that I would care to shoot very often. The 30/06 would be much more "user friendly".

As long as you are going to be using custom ammunition anyway, a reasonably popular choice in Europe for driven game like wild boar, the 8x57JRS, might be worth considering. Factory ammuntion, Norma available in the US for example, loads a 196 gr bullet at around 2400 fps. Recoil in a 7 lb rifle should be no problem. Recent French publications describe as "less brutual for both the shooter and the gun." Another as the "best cartridge available for driven game".

If I ever buy a double rifle, it will probably be in 8x57JRS. It is a frequent choice in Merkel and Chapuis doubles used in Europe and should be available by special order from US importers.

I wonder if one could have a double rifle chambered in the 7.62 X54R like used in the "Nagant" rifles. Those rifles are the crappiest looking thing in the world but after owning several I wouldn't want to be standing in front of a mad russian in the early 191X during a war with-in 500 meters, those things shoot like a house of fire. Some of that accuracy has to be contributed to the cartridge. It seems like the perfect double rifle cartridge for Black bear sized game, shoots a .308 bullet so reloading would be a sinch, and is rimmed. Recoil is almost non-existant in a 7-8 lb gun. I would think one of the European makers would have this as an option also. It is a cartridge that has been around forever.

Oh man guys, don't confuse me any more. I'm trying to decide between these two calibers and the LAST thing I need is more logical choices!

Just to make things more interesting, how about the 7x57R, like the 7x57, but rimmed, or the 7x65R, like a rimmed 280? Both well thought of and widely available in European doubles, i.e. "express rifles".

Hoser-


You can agonize over this forever -- there is an infinite number of possible combinations of cartridges for you to waffle over...


There is nothing wrong with either cartridge.
The 30-06 is a great choice - and it's perfect for everything you're talking about ever hunting.
There is and will be much more 30 caliber ammunition to you cheaper than the 9.3 and you might (very well could) luck out with with factory copper solid ammunition.

Both Merkel and Chapuis are capable of (gunbuilders do it all the time) building and shipping you a rifle that will extract or eject 30-06 ammunition reliably and consistently - and if for some oddball chance the factory rifle doesn't work out it's WARRANTIED so you're sitting pretty anyway.

There are thousands and thousands of perfectly functional ejector rifles popping 'rimless' brass out upon opening with MONOTONOUS RELIABILITY - to the point where here/now in the 21st Century, it's a total non-issue.


The life-cycle costing of the 30-06 (with the same round count) will be far cheaper than the 9.3mm rifle.
You might not end up shooting the 9.3mm rifle nearly as much as you would with the 30 caliber rifle though, because the recoil is much more energetic and much more brisk -- and the cost per shot is so high.
Forget about 'cheap practice ammunition' with the 9.3 as you don't seem to want to reload.


Just get the 30-06
You'll love it, you'll love to shoot it, and once you finally get it and realize how sweet it is to handle and run a small-caliber double rifle, you'll realize that it's worth it to take whatever plunge you need to take to start handloading for it -- where you'll find the fun really begins...




I look forward to your soon-to-occur decision.
May you enjoy your slick light little 30-06!!


By the way, for this first double rifle, forget about custom chambered rifles for such cartridges as the 7.62 X54R
If there is a cartridge that can go bang, there's a gunmaker who can wrap a rifle around it.
You'll pay.
Save that for later.
Get running with a nice production rifle now, then figure out what your custom rifle dream is later in life -- when you can afford it...



Cheers
Tinker

Well said Tinker -- thanks!

Since I'm not a big reloader (yet) and live in CA, I will need to have someone work up a solid copper load for me to hunt wild pig in my area. CA has certain "protected" areas for condor where lead ammo is not allowed to be used to hunt! Based on another post, North Fork and GS Bullets will work and North Fork is approved to use their bullets in CA. SO, that's the reason for custom loads!

JUST FYI, HERE'S A QUOTE FROM NORTH FORK BULLETS THAT PUT MY MIND AT EASE REGARDING SOLIDS AND CALIFORNIA HUNTING (not yelling, just setting apart from the quote):

"Todd,
I'll gladly try to answer your questions.

First off, we manufacture flat and cup point solids that are all copper for most double rifle calibers. The fla

JUST FYI, HERE'S A QUOTE FROM NORTH FORK BULLETS THAT PUT MY MIND AT EASE REGARDING SOLIDS AND CALIFORNIA HUNTING (not yelling, just setting apart from the quote):

"Todd,
I'll gladly try to answer your questions.

First off, we manufacture flat and cup point solids that are all copper for most double rifle calibers. The flat and cup points bullets are registered with the State of California as lead free so they are legal to use for hunting in the lead free zones.

Next to try and answer your question is it safe to use North Fork Solids in double rifles, the answer is yes for "modern" double rifles and maybe for older double rifles. I'll explain the "problem" with some bullet designs and how they can cause issues in older double rifles. A solid copper (or any mono metal bullet) or thick jacketed bullet does not compress much when going through rifling compared to a thin jacketed bullet. In old doubles in particular there was a lot of variation from maker to maker as to the actual diameter of the rifling and the thickness of the walls of the barrels. I have heard stories of some mono metal (touch jacketed) bullets causing damage to the barrels or solder joint of old double rifles. With new double rifles, there are much better standards that everyone adheres to which helps to minimize the risk of sending a large "non-compressible" slug through a too small diameter bore. All North Fork solid bullets are what you would call a bore riding design. What this means is that the only portion of our bullet that contacts the rifling is our bands. The rifling actually never touches the "solid" copper section of the bullet and only the compressible bands. We are the only US manufacture that I know of that manufactures mono metal bullets in this manner. Before shooting our solids in an old double rifle, it is best to slug the bores and make sure you know exactly the diameter of the bores and get it checked out by a qualified gunsmith prior to shooting modern bullets in them.

I hope this answers your questions. Please feel free to ask more if needed.

Regards,
Franz Jurva
North Fork Technologies
PO Box 850
Philomath, OR 97370
(541) 929-4016; Fax: (541) 929-4424
http://www.northforkbullets.com"

Hoser-


I know the CA state issues - I live in downtown Oakland!
Not for long though, we're selling off and moving to NV as soon as we can - hopefully before spring's done.

On the NF and GS bullets and custom ammunition -- you should get in touch with Merkel and Chapuis TODAY (What I mean to say is, you should pick up the phone this minute and make the call) and find out if both/either will stand by their rifles if fired with monometal solids. Do your homework (this minute) on factory ammunition for the 30-06 and have that for the conversation with the US representatives of the makers.

Know this.
Extensive use of monolithic bullets is known to cost barrel life.
Culling operations in the South Pacific and in Africa have noted this - guys who are qualified to know by way of having worn out factory tubes in single barrel turn bolt rifles, and who have run (right next to them) single barrel turn bolt rifles with softs from the same makers that DID NOT wear out prematurely.

For whatever reason, this issue of mono-solids and barrel lifespan seems to be controversial.
There are guys out there who seem hell-bent on 'debunking' what they presume must be a 'myth' -- and I'm just giving you a little heads up to take down the path.
You'll spend a fair bit of coin on a double rifle, and you're not going to be able to re-barrel it for anything less than THOUSANDS of dollars.

This is how it is:
You'll work out a HUNTING LOAD with monometal solids (Barnes or NF or GS or Woodleigh or Whatever...) and that load will be a known good load.

You WILL NOT waste this ammunition on plinking or practice or jolly-holly-time shooting. Instead, you will have found (some or other) factory ammunition that shoots to regulation in your rifle.
Chances are you'll even find an affordable HUNTING factory ammunition that works in your rifle (You WILL hunt in areas and states outside the Condor Zone).
My Crystal Ball tells me that you will soon own a beam scale, a single stage press and a set of 30-06 dies, and that you will realize that you are a NATURAL in the skills of Handloading, and that you will end up finding an impossibly cheap cast bullet load for your double rifle shat shoots amazingly well.
If I'm seeing things clearly, you end up taking a Black Bear, a Mule Deer, and a Bobcat ALL IN THE SAME Northern California hunting trip -- and you do it with cheap silver-box Winchester ammunition that you buy at a gas station in McLeod Ca on the way up to your hunt..!


Get on the phone.
Order the rifle.
Let us know when it arrives.

In the meantime we'll work on where and with whom you'll develop your unleaded ammunition for hunting in the Condor Zone.
You can even kill a couple of the ugly dumpster-divers while you're at it and help us erase the "Condor" from the 'Condor Zone'...



Write back today with your news from the Chapuis and Merkel reps.






Cheers
Tinker

Great post Tinker. Thanks (again).

I'm leaning toward having Superior Ammuntion, but there have been others suggested that would be options to work up a regulated, solid copper load for my specific rifle.

Hoser-


Where in the state do you live?
There might be a qualified double rifle owner/hunter/handloader in our area who could walk you through the process of working up a load for your double rifle - at the shooting range. That all depends on where you live...

Have you contacted Chapuis, Merkel, Superior Ammunition, or another independent ammunition manufacturer yet?



Cheers
Tinker

I'm in Fresno. I emailed Chapuis and Merkel but no response yet.

I notice there seems to be a lot of 9.3x74R doubles for sale, but NO 30-06. Is that because the 3006 is not a popular double rifle round, not many makers make these in larger volume, or that most people keep them?

Hoser-

I've shot both 9.3x74r double rifles AND light .30 caliber double rifles.

The recoil from a properly stocked 30-06 is nothing.
The rifles are light and wand-like.

A 9.3 double rifle will need to be somewhat heavier, but they tend to be built light - and the cartridge has much much more energy than the little .30 caliber
The difference in recoil is considerable.

My sense is that there are plenty of the lighter rifles built - and at the price point you're looking to spend, there's no good reason to sell them once they're up and running, and they're a total joy to shoot and cheap to feed.
On this tier of production built rifles, there's no distinction of 'rare' or 'scarce' -- when someone wants one it comes and they keep coming...




Cheers
Tinker

Hoser,
The Newer Merkel rifle in 9.3 and 30-06 is built on the small 28 gauge frame. It is very light. I have this 141 Model in 30-06 and love it. I would not like the light gun in 9.3x74r. It would be too light and more felt recoil. The older Merkel 140 Model was made on a larger frame and weighed 1 lb + more than the new. I had that gun prior to the 06 and loved it as well.
Bob Jurewicz

I'm noticing the newer 141 guns are about twice the price of Chapuis. I may just stick with Chapuis, even thought a 141 in 30-06 sounds perfect!

Nothing wrong with the Chapuis!

They're known to be very very accurate too - and If I recall, they all come set up to take scope bases, from the factory.



So.
Have you called Chapuis and Merkel yet about monometal bullets and factory 'unleaded' ammunition?
I'm guessing that ANY dealer who's holding a new double rifle in 30-06 would be willing to talk price with you too.
A sale is a good thing after all!




Cheers
Tinker

Hoser,
I just noticed a 9.3 Chapuis for sale on NitroExpress for $4100 inclding shipping,scope mounts and ammo. WHAT A DEAL!!! I have nothing to do with that gun!
Bob Jurewicz

I know, that's one of my options. OR a 30-06 that I have a line on (but for more)!

I have a 9.3X 74 I would like to trade or sell for $4100.German restocked,well used.I am not sure of the spelling of the name.montgom@tecinfo.comXXX remove the xxx
Monty

Hoser,
Do a search at nitro express about 'outside rifleing and monometal bullets.. Basicly you'll see that there is reason to believe that the solid copper bullets push the rifling to the outside of the tubes. Barnes denies it but they build them and want to sell them. My choice is NOT to take a chance. There are too many other top notch bullets available to chance skrewing up one of my DR's.