doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com JP Sauer for sale at local shop, info please...

Not enough money or time to buy everything but there seem to be some guns popping up around here for sale lately, I mention the NID 12 ga I bought on another post and a trip today to the local shop surfaced a back action J.P. Sauer hammergun in 12ga. Krupp bbls, great bores, locks like a vault and nice wood. Gun has swivels, cheekpiece and some cc left. Serial number 74649. I haven't bought it yet as the price seems steep at 650. Any info/input would be greatly appreciated.

Krupp steel barrel Sauer for $650. I wouldn't hesitate!!!!!!
Bob Jurewicz

Steve: RUN, don't walk & get that Sauer.

Best Regards, George

geeez I guess my knowledge on hammer guns is limited, I just wanted a hammer gun to do some "vintage" pheasent hunting once in a while. Think it's the good of a deal?? If it is maybe I need to pick it up for someone here that will appreciate it more than I. I can find another. I would really prefer a Parker...

I'd be somewhat concerned about the price for this gun.
If memory serves me correctly SARCO unloaded hundreds of shotguns in similiar configurations in the $300 range awhile back.
Jim

$300 Sauers with great bores and nice wood? I don't think so. Low grade Husqvarnas, maybe. This hammer Sauer sounds like a bargain to me.
- Jani

I didn't pay a lot of attention but they had a mixture of Swedish and German guns as I remember it. Some had hammers and some were hammerless. These were NOT being sold as decorators so I assumed they were in shootable condition. Without pictures here you can draw your own conclusions I guess.
Jim

Yes, good pictures would be worth a thousand words...
With kind regards,
Jani

Somebody did unload a bunch of used-hard Sauers. I was at Cabela's in Omaha yesterday and they have about 10 of them. Prices in the $4-550 range. I think that same lot of guns did include quite a few Huskies, but there were a bunch of German and Spanish guns as well. Saw a Brno OU with a very unusual lockup.

Steve, if you get it I'll swap it immediately for this nice Simson 16 bore:








JC

That O/U BRNO is a terrific gun. Light and quick pointing. Mine has double triggers that work similar to the Superposed double single trigger. If I recall correctly, the front trigger fires the upper barrel. I bet you cannot figure out how to disassemble to clean it though. Hint: the fore arm does not come off, it stays with the barrels. BTW, the standing breech is moveable in and out when the gun is open, sorta like it is spring loaded.

Most of the guns coming out of Sweden are Huskies, both hammer and hammerless, and Sauer hammerless. A friend who is a high volume dealer in these guns has not displayed a Sauer hammer gun to my knowledge. This is probably not one of the $300 wonders. Even the hammer Model 51 Huskies in high condition are not priced much if any lower than the subject Sauer. I bought a Model 51 in fairly high condition for under $500 a couple of years ago from my friend, and I wouldn't sell it for $900.

going to get the gun right now!! A VERY satisfactory price was settled on and I will have pictures before tomorrow....

STAY TUNED

Steve, good move!

I am already envious.

JC

Purchase complete, think I'll lay back a smoke a cigarette now...

Don't be suprised if this gun surfaces for sale in the next day or two and I'll pass along a good deal, I much prefer US made hammerless guns. I just thought it might be too good of a deal to let "Joe fence post" hang it on his wall in his fishin cabin around here. I think this gun needs a home with someone who will greatly appreciate its quality and remaining finish.

Working on pictures now

Maybe some charitable soul will get it for me?

And ship it down? Air parcel post will do.

JC

Gun just appeared on for sale thread, sorry about the pictures if I send them to someone could they do a better job of posting them for me?? I am not the most computer savvy..

Without looking, I'd guess circa 1900. It was proofed in the final state and extra effort and ammo were expended for craftsmanship and shooting performance. Sauer was big on shooting performance as at times in times in sourcing other Suhl craftsmen they requested the pattern to be with a 75cm circle at 20 meters.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey Thank you very much, Can you explain the proofs? I know a few but have dabbled very little in the Continental guns and don't know much. This gun seemed too good to pass up. Definately way better quality than the Belguim junkers often seen.

The "Caveman" with a "staff" next to the serial number is either for the tubes being completed at the Sauer plant or the fitting at the Sauer plant. There looks to be a set of initials on the left tube ahead of the flats next to the lower rib just below the "Caveman" with a "staff". Can you read them with a glass? I'm curious if ahead of the serial number on the tubes toward the muzzle if there is the mark of an Imperial Eagle and "Crown" over "S"? I think early on after the 1893 prooflaws that bundles of tubes were proofed and then later, after being assembled, they were proofed again. The "Crown" over "S"(shot) coupled with the "Crown" over "B" note the right tube experiencing only a final proof in a completed state, accepting full responsibility for the end results of proof, but with the charge and load of the preliminary proof(3 times the powder charge and double the shot charge). The "Crown" over "U"(inspected) must accompany the "Crown" over "B". On the left tube the "Crown" over "B" coupled with the "Crown" over "W"(Wurgebohrung-choke) notes the tube underwent 2 proofs, what they were I can't say for sure. And then the "Crown" over "U" notes inspection and sometimes definitive proof when alone or with an Imperial Eagle. The gauge designation in a circle denotes 65mm chambers and possibly black powder proof post 1912?? And beside that is the vulgar fractions. The other larger crowns are from the Sauer plant and note quality and performance.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

JayCee:

What is that other stamp on the left side of the watertable below the Simson triangles and above the serial number? And I notice you have a quality mark on the left side of the rear barrel lug.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Raimey,

You have very sharp eyes!
It is the local CIP Proof House's proof mark (BP for Banco de Prueba).



JC

Raimey, two big crowns probably stand one for Saxony, where Suhl was located and bigger one for Prussia (Suhl subordination after 1815). Later we can see only one big crown on prewar Sauer's gun and I belive it was after 1920, when Thuringia has appeared on Germany map.

Raimey, here is what you saw on the left side of the rear barrel lug.


Can it be a reproof done in May 1969?

JC

I have had so much fun with this gun that I'm tempted not to sell it... I am beginning to learn a lot and after handling the gun for a while and seeing its craftsmanship I may keep it. I gave $525 plus 7% tax for it so it is not a huge investment but I would rather have the $$ for an American classic. I'm sure everyone has said this but there just doesn't seem to be enough money for everything.

JayCee:

Thanks for the info.

Geno:
I thought the same thing and after several a$$ chewings from Mr. Cate and reading and re-reading Sauer catalogues, there had to be some desingation for craftsmanship above and beyond the normal as well as something to denote shooting performance. If I'm not mistaken, during the pre-WWI period examples are seen with 2 crowns, and others with one or the other. If there is an example with the Crown, or Crowns, with the word "Prussia", it might make a better case.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

JayCee:

That's the stamp that notes top of the line 1st quality East German product. All products considered top of the line wore that stamp. I think some had "DDR" under them. Why it's 569(5/1969??), I don't know.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Geno:

I just scanned thru my notes and Sauer #186309 has a small crown on the left barrel flat and the word "Prussia" on the right flat. Sauer #197634 only has a large crown. And I think it was Sauer #146331 that had only a single large crown. Also Sauer DR #131857 has a small detailed crown on the lower right flat. From the examples I've seen, it appears that the both crowns are seen more on scatterguns and drillings that double rifles. And there may exist a double rifle, or single rifle, with both crowns which might point in a different direction. Double rifle drilling #174491 has a large crown on the flat of the scattergun tube.

The stamps of the series of multiple(sets of 2, 3 & 4) "caveman" with a "staff" denoted something?

Also I have in my notes that in 1875 Krupp applied for or acquired the "3 Ring" trademark. Anyone substaniate that?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Thank you for the information.

Best Wishes for a Happy and Prosperous 2010 with lots of New Guns and Great Hunts!

JC

JayCee:

Happy New Year to you and yours and hopefully we can meet over a Pisco sour.

One more question: What is that Moire pattern on the right flat against the extractor rod near the tube & lower rib? I have a very similar BuHaG with Simson tubes(although they were long gone) and August Schuler frame and I've seen that frame with the doughnut hole in the center on Sauers, Schulers, Simson's etc. Apparently there was only one frame source post WWII, or many were left-over.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hawkeye Raimey,

Here you go:


No idea what it may represent. If you want I can get you a better photo next year ;-)

Best,

JC

Thanks JayCee:

The pic pretty much confirms what I thought, which is that it is an "Outstanding Quality" mark but I don't know that I've seen it there before.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So I can be proud of owning a "best" DDR Simson double!

Thank you again for the information.

I should point out that I looked at its innards and everything inside is highly polished
and fit and finish are really great.

JC

You sure can and there's nothing short about these examples with the only issue being choke, usually very tight. I think they are a sleeper/great deal in that they are made by pre-WWII craftsmen using mostly pre-WWII components at a post WWII, sort of anti-German, price. I stoned the overhanging scears on one of my examples and it really is a "go to gun" as far as 70mm cartridges. You just need to practice distance and not let the quarry get too close. As a shooter, you just can't beat them. And those quality marks aren't anything to be snubbed.

I really wonder who was applying those Simson trademarks/marks or were they already there?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse