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Forums10
Topics38,445
Posts544,831
Members14,406
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Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 831 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 831 Likes: 10 |
Sending just a double's frame and furniture to CCH is fine if done between people in the trade,..and this should always be with the understanding that some " proper" hard fitting "could" be required.
Providing this service to the average guy who sends and receives his parts via mail that he himself is expecting to put all back together at home is in my opinion a pretty dangerous practice from a business stand point, word travels fast these days and a couple unhappy clients can cost a lot more in the long run than the few buck that were made taking on the work.
Just like Miller said,...if someone claims to be able to heat up intricately machined pieces of steel in a furnace, subject them to high heat for a long period of time, then rapidly cool them in a tank of water and have them all perfectly engage with the rest of the original components (lockwork , stock and barrels),...100% of the time, he's not telling you all he knows,...but if he is!........... he should buy a lottery ticket
CJ
The taste of poor quality lingers long after the cheap price is forgotten.........
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 195 Likes: 17
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 195 Likes: 17 |
“When faith is lost, when honor dies, the man is dead” - John Greenleaf Whittier
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 592 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 592 Likes: 2 |
Hello Tom,
What area of the Fox are you referring to? The floor plate, or the joint? Just curious. I nearly bought this gun from the fellow that sold it to the current listing dealer, but passed after a brief phone call... Kind of regret it as I would have had her for 1/2 of current asking price and if it wasn't up to snuff, could have returned it.
Jerry
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 195 Likes: 17
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 195 Likes: 17 |
it looks like some heavy buffing was done on that floorplate. cpmpare it to this http://www.gunsinternational.com/Fox-CE-...un_id=100106106
“When faith is lost, when honor dies, the man is dead” - John Greenleaf Whittier
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97 |
A low, controlled heat process, combined with specific chemicals is the safest way to recolor a shotgun receiver. So long as the heat is kept low and controlled, the original receiver metallurgy and heat treatment is not changed. No harm is done to the gun nor is there any potential for danger to the shooter, as a result of the re coloring process.
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
We know precisely how Pipes deploys his low, controlled heat and his cold blue. Precisely how do you do the voodoo that you currently do? What specific chemicals do you use--specifically? Care to share, Ed?
jack
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97 |
ah useuely holts da torch in mah left han, fur control, dont ya no; an den ah splashes on de pickel jewce wid my right han...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812 |
Hadn't thot of pickel jewce in that app. About that fur control--is that for full moon nites when you're really barking?
jack
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
I have to agree that I have experienced some dimensional changes with a gun being redone using traditional methods. Which brings to mind some of the past discussions about faux case coloring a receiver. Here are some quotes: I received a private request for more complete details on this method I described in a recent post, so thought I would just put it up for all. This is copied directly from an Ithaca Service manual of about 25yrs ago.
To Repair or Restore Color Case on Perazzi's
1; This is a serious problem on guns that have been used extensively.
Equipment Required:
a. Cold blue (we use 44-40)
b. “Q” tips (cotton swabs on a stick)
c. Torch or other heat source
d. Paint remover (we use “Kwick”)
e. Fine steel wool
2; Procedure:
(1) Remove everything from the receiver.
(2) Remove lacquer from the receiver using “Kwick” or other liquid paint remover
(3) Wash receiver in a good solvent or boil with detergent.
(4) Using your heat source, heat the receiver to
a point where liquid cold blue will dry almost
instantly, (about 160°F)
(5) Using a “Q” tip, draw squiggly lines or
whatever is necessary to match existing color
hardening.
Note* If you have polished the receiver to bare
metal, space your lines about ¼” apart on the
first pass, then fill in on a 2nd pass.
(6) Using fine steel wool dipped in oil, remove
the oxidation from the receiver. Be careful
not to remove the color.
(7) Wash in good solvent. Do not touch before
applying lacquer.
(8) Spray with acrylic plastic from “Koloid”
(9) Reassemble gun & return to a satisfied
customer.
Note** This procedure does not affect the case
hardening. It only restores the color.
A few things of note; I also tried Brownell's Oxpho blue & found it worked same as 44-40. I do not recall the brand of Acrylic I used but don't recall Koloid being available where I purchased mine. Also note that though a "Torch" is listed as a heat source, it is used to heat the part to an overall temp of only about 160°F, not enough to bring about any change of color, not even the faintest straw or yellow, much less blue. No concentration of heat is applied to bring about a color change in the metal (A simple propane torch is suffecient heat for the job). Outside of a genuine bone/charcoal case-hardening by knowledgable professional, this is the only procedure I am currently aware of to produce a semblance of case colors with no damage to existing heat-treatment.
Miller
PS; this is applicable to guns other than Perazzi's and can be simply polished off should you decide to go with another finish later. Bill- Oscar and I had short conversation on this method several years ago on SSMBBS. He and i agreed that this wouldn't match properly done color case hardening but was acceptable on a gun valued at less than enough to make recoloring worth the cost. I quit posting the method because every time I mentioned a torch people assumed high temeratures and sent Chicken Little in screaming "The sky is falling and your going to blow up your gun. O My God, rush out and meaure the chambers first".
Iodine or a salt brine applied with a Q-tip will give you a dull red, pink if you buff it with 0000 steel wool. A few things of note; I also tried Brownell's Oxpho blue & found it worked same as 44-40. I do not recall the brand of Acrylic I used but don't recall Koloid being available where I purchased mine. Also note that though a "Torch" is listed as a heat source, it is used to heat the part to an overall temp of only about 160°F, not enough to bring about any change of color, not even the faintest straw or yellow, much less blue. No concentration of heat is applied to bring about a color change in the metal (A simple propane torch is suffecient heat for the job). Outside of a genuine bone/charcoal case-hardening by knowledgable professional, this is the only procedure I am currently aware of to produce a semblance of case colors with no damage to existing heat-treatment.
also it has been mentioned about using iodine and heat, drawing squiggly lines I have played with this approach. For a "torch" I used a hand held hair dryer, some have heated the parts in oven at about 160F. It gets hot, but nothing that will affect the metal (stay away from heat guns!) I have "played" with various coloring agents, including betadine, plumb brown, etc. It is easy to correct any "mistakes" with some steel wool. The result will never pass for a traditional process. But it does no harm either. Pete
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Maybe a little more metallurgy. Steel has several characteristics we need to keep in mind; compressive strength, tensile strength, shear strength, hardness, wear resistance, surface finish, machinabiity, ductility and brittleness. Classic guns have been made of mild steel. It is relatively low in all strengths, hardness, wear resistance, and brittleness. It is high in surface finish, machinability, and ductility. Medium and high carbon steels are much stronger, harder, wear resistant and brittle. They have lower machineability and ductility. All plain carbon steels have about the same modulus; the amount of force needed to deflect (bend) the piece. Springs could be made from mild steel but would have to be limited in deflection to avoid permanent bending; high carbon steel can stand much greater deflection without permanent bending if properly tempered after hardening
Mild steel is nice to work by means of relatively simple (hand) tools and has good surface finish. It is made strong enough for gun parts by designing the part large enough so as not to permanently deform under design loading (cycling and firing forces). Permanent deformation of any gun part is considered failure; breakage is not required. Springs can be an exception by way of small deformation without loss of utility or breakage. Wear resistance is dealt with via case hardening wherein a thin layer of medium/high carbon steel is formed by soaking in a carbon rich environment at elevated temperature.
With higher carbon steel, we now must balance hardness against brittleness. Brittleness is the characteristic of breaking/cracking prior to permanent deformation (ductility). Medium and high carbon steels are subject to heat treating. Hardening is accomplished by heating above a critical temperature and then freezing the steel’s structure by dunking into a quench medium. This produces a very hard, but excessively brittle piece. Some hardness can be traded for less brittleness by tempering, reheating the steel into the 300 – 700 degree F region, depending on the hardness/brittleness balance needed. This same process applies to the core and case of a case hardened piece. If the case is very thin, brittleness doesn’t seem to matter. However, when the case becomes “thick” relative to the thickness of the piece, then brittleness can become an issue. Recasing will thicken the case layer and may increase the percent of carbon (medium to high carbon).
So, annealing will make the case layer soft. Annealing, along with hardening, will have no effect on the mild steel core. Warpage can/does occur with any steel that is heated; it doesn’t take much to affect a precision fitted joint. Fortunately, those craftsmen good at case hardening have found ways to minimize warpage. If, however, a gun part is exposed to multiple case hardening cycles, temper will become an issue. Per CJO above, a tang (relatively thin) can become so carborized as to suffer a brittle fracture unless tempered. I’m not aware of anyone doing post quench tempering on case hardened gun parts; although I think it would be a good idea.
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