doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com question on case color

stan: how did dat won git bye me. ah usuly cuts um back too 24". den de maks nice truck gons.

My '32 Manufrance Ideal 12 showed up this morning from Arizona. Nothing fancy--grade 1 or 2--also a blued frame gun according to the lights of an eagle-eyed friend to the south of here. The fleas come with the dog of course so there are a few cons to this one but it's nice to know I don't even have to momentarily contemplate a metallurgical nightmare over some irridescense the thickness of a soap bubble!

jack

I just noticed that Ed "The Torch Artist", and Dewey Vicknair, SKB, and Miller all have a 3 star rating. Ain't that a bit like adding Jimmy Carters' face to Mt. Rushmore?

Actually, it would be more like adding B. Hussien's face to Mt. Rushmore........

I can see it happening....

Well now i don't know what I may have said to have much Bearing upon my "Star" rating. I have tried to point out the difference betwen a "Torch Job" which is done by applying the tiop of an accetylene torch in a stationary position to a piece of steel until it changes to the desired color, & artificically "Painted ON" colors which are applied to steel warmed to about 160°F. The first is an abomination & Certainly Detrimental to the gun. The 2nd is Non-Damaging. I have advocated neither, simply tried to popint out their differences. Neither will ever provide the beauty of a true "Color Case Hardened" job.
I have also tried my humble best to point out that "ANYTIME" you put a piece of steel in a furnace & heat it to above its critical temperature, there is "RISK" involved. If anyone wants to "Take That Risk" for the sake of a prettier gun, then its thgeir choice, their gun & their money. I just think anyone contemplating having it done needs to be aware there are risks involved.
They also need to be made aware that those beautiful colors can be produced by heating to "Below" the steels critical Temp, but doing so will draw all the hardness from the original treatment (Which incidentally is still there, all that has been lost over the years is the color) & will put none of it back. A quench from below the critical temp does not add hardness, this comes about only from the molecular change of the steel as it exceeds that Critical Temp. This molecular change is also the cause for the risk of warpage etc.
Anyone having "Real Facts" which refute anything I have said on this matter, "Say ON" I am perfectly willing to listen to "Facts".
As to my number of Stars I'm sorta like the Wise Ol Owl, I just don't really give a Hoot.
Me I have some guns with a good amount of what I believe to be original colors, & others with virtually none left. None of them are going into a furnace. Even if I were to acquire one which had been totally polished up it still wouldn't go into a furnace, they'll age real quick if you just sorta let them be.

Lots of discussion, figures I’ll add my two cents.
I always anneal the frame of a case hardened gun when it comes in. Besides normalizing the steel, annealing has a few side benefits; it removes that hard case, making parts easier to polish, it also converts rust to a powder that is easily brushed off, it also makes it possible to re roll tang marking (no way am I using a roll die or stamp on a hardened frame), and makes life easier on my engraver if there is any touch ups that are needed.

Case Hardening is an age old process, the effects are well known to those willing to do the research.

Warpage is going to happen, it might be undetected but will happen, key to minimizing warpage is knowing the correct temps (parts & quench water), proper blockage and knowing how to drop the parts into the quench.

I've only seen one frame that was significantly warped & the buttpalte cracked when the gunsmith tried to install it.

That CCH job was done by another shop( I won't name names) and the gun's owner sent it down to me to "fix". Just by looking at the colors on the frame, the frame had been held too long at temp, quenched at too high a temp & the quench water probably had saline in it.

After annealing,about 5 hours to straighten the frame, and a bit of welding then polishing the frame & parts were re case hardening. Expensive lesson for the owner, I didn't ask what he paid to have it case hardened the first time, but I'm sure it was too much.

Color Case Hardening is a pretty low risk operation, if the person doing the case hardening understands the process.

That abomination called torch coloring…is just that an abomination. You don’t have a clue what you are doing to the metallurgy of the part. Just heating the part to 400 (straw) will start to change the properties.
Don’t know anything about “painting on colors”, I guess it’s like those Beretta “painted” fancy stocks.

Mike Hunter
Hunter Restorations
http://www.Hunterrestorations.com

I have had 3 guns re-casehardened in the past 15 years. A Parker, a Smith, and an Ithaca. Two were done by Turnbull and one by or through Gunter Pfrommer. The colors and workmanship on all three appeared excellent. All three experienced minor warping which did not affect the usability or shootability of the guns. Its just that some of the parts didn't fit as well as they did prior to the re-case. On the Parker, the entire frame spread apart at the rails about .002. On the Smith, one sideplate warped slightly so that it was .001 or 2 proud at one end, and flush at the other. On the Ithaca, the toplever wiggled slightly in the frame. I agree with 2-piper: in the old days, master craftsmen known as "hard fitters" would bend or smack a part back into alignment after the casehardening was complete. If the part broke, they got another one and started from scratch. Today, there aren't any "other ones" to replace a broken part with, so (rightly so, I think) no one is willing to take the risk of smacking or tweaking a warped part back into alignment. JMHO. Bottom line is that I will not re-case another gun. If it too bad to live with, then I simply pass. Good luck.

CJ, I think you have this right. I plan to check a few heat treat facts and will get back with you to see if we are in consensus.

Limapapa;
This agrees exactly with my experience of heat treatment of steels over 35 yrs in a machine shop. This was on both through hardening & case hardened steels, though "Not" shotgun actions. In my experience a piece of steel just "Does Not" go through a furnace & be brought above its critical temp & then be quenched "WITHOUT SOME DIMENSIONAL CHANGE". Ceertainly carelessness in temps can magnify the problems, but it must be understood if that critical temp is not reached then all the hardness of the case will be "Tempered Out" & the part will only be "Colored".
I feel any person performing this work who does not make their customer "FULLY AWARE" of the possibilities is a "SHARK" (If the shoe fits Wear it). The customer can then make their own decision & bear the responsibility.