doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Best / strongest double shotgun action ever made?

Ted;
Just relax a little, nobody but Joe is attacking your Beloved Darne & all he wants is to get under your hide. Try using your brain in a reasonable manner for awhile.

Are you not aware that Remingtron, Winchester, L C Smith, Parker, Lefever, Fox, Ithaca, Etc, Etc, Etc "ALL" have patents on Double Bbl, self cocking, hammerless shotguns.

A good example is Winchester received a patent on a bbl check for the model 21. Now bbl checks had been in use for at least a half century before the 21 came on the market. Perhaps some feel this one was an "Improvement" many others don't, but it is different.

"IF" you can find that Darne Patent, most likely you will find that Regis Darne did not patent the "Concept" of the Mono-Block at all, but that he patented some particular feature of one which he changed enough to receive a patent. If I had the time an inclination I could go through patents & list you a few million patents for items which had been previously patented on their basic concept.

It is also most likely the actual fact of his mono-block patent played only a small insignificant role in his ultimate success.

This will open: http://www.damascus-barrels.com/files/Bernard_Drissen_catalog_1907.pdf

There is nothing about damascus here in the actual patent.



To follow Miller's point, here is Francisque making changes.




Pete

That was a good one Miller....impossible but good.

There really was only one French shotgun gunmaker I think his name was Parley or something like that.

I've held two examples in my hands one a thumb push and the other a top lever both hammer guns.

Both guns looked to be strongly influenced by Purdey.

No toe'matO stakes there Tedd'e

Well, Miller, his ultimate success was such that, he did not renew his original patents of 1894, etc, in 1909, leaving anyone who wanted to build a copy of the Darne gun from that era able to do so, including his son. Many did. The monoblock is pretty much what differentiated his sliding breech guns from others and he did renew that patent at least once. How many Darne copies have you seen with a monoblock? There is a reason for that.
Pete, that Francisque Darne patent illustrated above is an improvement to a patent that was allowed to lapse-Regis Darne's patent of 1894. Would that patent had been granted to Francisque, had Regis not allowed the original to lapse, is a good guess, from this juncture. Can you say for sure, one way or the other? I can't.
Didn't I say (which, you seem to have repeated, Miller) that there must have been something different between Pieper's and Darne's patents, that allowed them both to have one on a similar invention? Use your eye's, Miller.
The last Pieper I got to see, a 28 gauge hammer gun, wasn't a monoblock gun. That makes three Pieper guns, and I can't honestly say any of them were monoblock designs. I know he built them, but, I haven't seen any.


Joe must not know who Granger is. Or Bernard.

Best,
Ted

Not taking sides but here's my Pieper Monoblock. It's steel with damascus barrels.

Canvasback

Like I said, I know they built them, just don't get to see many. Thanks for the photo.
Best,
Ted

Ted;
You are simply missing the total point of anything I have said.The olny thing I have even discussed is this statenment

Now let me say it One More Time in as plain a language as I can;
"Regis Darne Did Not Originate the Concept of the Monoblock".
"Henri Pieper was some 20 years ahead of him".
Whether you have seen one of them or not is totally beside the point, nearly everybody else in the world has. We have I think given you quite adequate proof that he indeed made them "First" & in fact in very large numbers.
He made guns with two styles of monoblocks, with chopper lumps & perhaps other methods of joining as well. I am not really all that knowledgeable on just what all he did build. My one & only Pieper happens to be one of his low end hammer guns having the "Twist" bbls screwed into the front end of the " STEEL Monoblock". This is the pattern he refered to as the "Modified Diana" as opposed to the "Original Diana" as pictured above. My bbls have a smooth transition rather than the step down at end on block.
"Both Types" were produced prior to Darnes 1902 patent.
What more can I say, I have no problem with your liking a Darne. I like my Lefevers, but I am totally aware that Uncle Dan didn't invent the Shotgun any more than Regis invented the Monoblock.
Yes I am totally aware that Darne utilized the monoblock on most of their guns, most I have seen were so built, not arguing that, but he did not invent it.
Would totally love to see his patent to see just what he did patent. You do also I suppose realize that patents are not automatically renewable, that has to be applied for & is not always granted. Quite often the patent authorities rule the patentee has been amply rewarded for his "Invention" & deny any renewal, thus opening it up for anyone to use.

Kinda sounds like Ted is trying to convince us Darne was the originator of the sleeved barrel gun.

If you guys think ol' Ted is trying to rewrite 150 year old history when it comes to guns, you should see what he tries to do with 40 year old history when it comes to cars. And don't even get him started on 'President Gore'.

Ted,

I think the confusion revolves around when a patent can be filed and granted. Francisque could file all the patents he wanted with out Regis' patent lapsing. As long as there is an improvement! Many gun makers filed multiple patents around the same concept as they refined it.

Do a search on http://www.google.com/patents for breech loading! Notice how many have "Improvement" in the title.

Also, when a patent revolves around a mechanical device, the materials involved are rarely mentioned in the patent. At most, only a generic term like steel is used. So, the whole fluid - damascus issue simply does not exist.

You invent a monoblock. Miller improves upon it. You file. Miller files one year late. Both patents are accepted. In today's world, Miller would have to acknowledge your patent, but that is a relatively recent part of the process. As long as Miller produced guns based on his patent, you can not complain.

Pete