doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com New/Used O/U shotgun

Well Mr. Legg,
Once again you've made some poorly thoughtout assumptions. I am not a union rep for the NEA, a teacher by profession, or gullible enough to swallow anything the news media has to promote.

You've said nothing of substance that would make me reconsider my observations that most people, are more than willing to pay more to fix their lights, automobile or have their garbage picked up than they'd ever pay the most important people in our society... teachers. The people who are responsible for helping each child grow into an adult capable of thinking a problem through to a logical conclusion instead of looking for an easy "pat" answer stated as fact when it's actually no more than opinion.

Stating that (and I paraphrase) "a teacher might be considered underpaid relative to where they live is a myth", has nothing to do with either fair value remuneration or their importance to our society. Such a position is indefensible and absurd. If you insist on stating as fact that teachers are NOT UNDER paid, then you continue to miss the point and probably always will.

Unfortunately, ignorance is bliss for too many. I trust you'll have a blissfully ignorant Merry Christmas unencumbered by this debate.

A Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

And I still think the Guerini is a good choice...but that's just my opinion...not a fact.

Sharpsrifle - Thanks for sticking up for my wife. A public school teacher for 20 years. And yes, she probably puts in 12 hours a day and 10-12 hours on weekends from mid-august to Mid June.

My opinion of parochial schools is a little different. They don't always get the best teachers because of their low pay. They also don't have to take the disabled, mentally handicapped or behavior problems so they leave the difficult but everybit as deserving of an education child to the public schools.

As far as the 12 g O/U, look at the Franchi SP or SX. It's in the price range you are looking for although it has the pistol grip. It has the Schnabel forend. The Franchi SP Veloce has the POW grip but it only comes in a 20 gauge. These Franchi have the best wood I have seen for the money. The SP and SX were recently replaced by a newer model but they are still available if you look. Very nice guns for the money.

The Rizzini and Guerini will be above your price limit unless you save a little longer or buy a rather used one.

One other thing Jim. When you look at the hours she works and her salary she makes about $14 per hour. Not bad until you consider she has her Masters Degree. How many other professionals with their Masters and 20 years experience make that when working in their profession? And if I had to put up with some of the parents she does, it would be just like that scene in "It's a Wonderful Life."

Merry Christmas.

Why has this been hijacked into a post about teachers??? The guy wants to know what kind of OU he can get for 1.5-2K. Help him out. You guys know a lot more about this than me.

My personal opinion about those guns is I would look for a used Browning Citori or Beretta silver pigeon. There are plenty of them around in gun racks. Someone should be able to change or modify the pistol grip into a more rounded one. Fit is paramount.

My personal opinion about Teachers. I respect them, feel they have a tough job, and are doing a great job with my kids.

regards

zehyani

I sure hope the gentlemen finds the O/U he's looking for. As far as teachers salaries go, they earn every nickel they get. I chose law enforcement for a career, darned if I'd take the crap teachers took from students and some parents and I made that chice 49 years ago. My Mother was a high school teacher, now I know the game has changed a lot, but still would go in to LE. In Wis. where I live teachers grade thier own papers. will not speak for Utah. Let it rest or run for the Board of Education and I have No time for the NEA.

well, In my opinion every teacher who wants to upgrade their gun collection deserves our support. If we had a couple hundred thousand more perhaps the future of our sport would be secure.

The Teacher Salary Myth
"You took a teaching position, 'cause you thought it'd be fun, right? Thought you could have summer vacations off...and then you found out it was actually work...and that really bummed you out"

-- Carl to Vernon, in the Breakfast Club

If you go to the NEA web site, you will see that they argue that most of the problems in education boil down to either low teacher pay or overly high teacher productivity expectations (i.e. classroom size). I fisked many of these claims here and here, but most media outlets still quote these assertions credulously when they write about education.

I have found (from some past emails I have received) that one of the ways to really irritate a teachers union rep is, when they lament their low salaries, to point out that they only work 9 months a year, and they should multiply their salaries by 1.33 to make them comparable to the rest of ours. For example, per the NEA web site, teachers made a bit over $56,000 on average in California in 2004. Lisa Snell, in this month's Reason, estimates that benefits add nearly $16,000 to this compensation package, for a total of about $72,000 per year for California teachers. Normalize this for the fact they work 9 months (or less) a year, and you get them making an equivalent of $100,000 a year. Woe is me.

Of course, California is high vs. other states on salary, and the "9 months" estimate is only approximate, and doesn't count the fact that teachers typically work a shorter work week than many other professionals. Fortunately, Snell pointed me to this article in Education Next, which has a fantastic rebuttal to the "teachers are underpaid" myth.

A substantial body of evidence implies that teachers are not underpaid relative to other professionals. Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers—as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.

Teachers, moreover, enjoy longer vacations and work far fewer days per year than most professional workers. Consider data from the National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which computes hourly earnings per worker. The average hourly wage for all workers in the category “professional specialty” was $27.49 in 2000. Meanwhile, elementary-school teachers earned $28.79 per hour; secondary-school teachers earned $29.14 per hour; and special-education teachers earned $29.97 per hour. The average earnings for all three categories of teachers exceeded the average for all professional workers. Indeed, the average hourly wage for teachers even topped that of the highest-paid major category of workers, those whose jobs are described as “executive, administrative, and managerial.” Teachers earned more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university-level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters. Note that a majority of these occupations requires as much or even more educational training as does K–12 teaching.

Curious about the data she uses, I went straight to her source, which is here, and now has data through 2003 online that can be queried. Sure enough, her conclusions are right there in the Labor Department data:

Professional or Technical Occupation 2003 $/hr
Technician $20.85
Avg. White Collar, ex. Sales $23.33
Avg. All Professional and Technical $28.37
Elementary School Teacher $31.74
Executive, administrator, manager $32.20
Engineer, architect, surveyor $34.34
Dentist $38.93
Lawyer $46.11
Doctor $52.91

Note that when corrected for hours worked onto a $ per hour basis, teacher salaries are higher than the average white collar or professional worker, and quite competitive with other professionals such as engineers and managers. In fact, if you were to take out private school teachers (which mix the number lower, see below) the average for public school teachers is even higher. Occupations making more than teachers such as doctors and lawyers require much more education and long-term commitment than the average elementary school teaching role.

By the way, the Education Next article linked above gives us another clue that is useful in understanding teachers salaries: For the vast majority of professions, a government job in that profession pays less than an equivalent private job. People accept the lower government salary for a variety of reasons -- sometimes for unique work (e.g. interning with the DA as a young lawyer), sometimes for the higher benefits and more job security, and sometimes just because the jobs require fewer hours and frankly have lower performance expectations than their private equivalent. The one glaring exception to this public-private salary relationship is with teachers salaries, where the salaries of public school teachers are often as much as 50% higher than their private school equivalents.

Wow! Its no wonder that the NEA hates the idea of school choice and competition from private schools. They have built a public employment gravy train, with premium salaries, no real penalty for under-performance, and double digit raises for a 180 day a year job -- all while selling the media on their woe-is-me-we-are-underpaid myth.

Correction: Messed up the Breakfast Club quote - it was spoken from Carl the Janitor to Vernon, not by "Carl Vernon".

Update: A lot of people ask "What do you have against teachers?" and I answer, "nothing." I can't remember complaining about what any employee of a private firm makes. In fact, for employees of private firms, I am happy to root for you to get all you can. Go for it. But teachers are not private employees -- they are government workers, just like every other government bureaucrat who gets paid by my taxes that are taken from me against my will. If I pay your salary, and in particular if I pay your salary against my will, you can be sure I am going to demand accountability.

By the way, I send my son to a private junior high. The school is widely acknowledged to do a much better job than any public school in the city. And you know what - my tuition at this school is $2000 per year LESS than the average per pupil spending in Scottsdale public junior high schools. And this school is 100% tuition supported (it is a for profit secular institution so it can't take contributions) and it turns a profit for the family that owns it. You know how many principals, assistant principals, administrators, and clerks it has for a 300 person junior high school? Two. The number at a similarly sized public school would be ten times as high. At least.

Posted on May 3, 2005 at 09:48 PM | Permalink

Merry Christmas to all

So,

What about his question? A good O/U for 1.5-2 K? Beretta 686? Browning Citori? Weatherby Orion? SKB? I do not feel qualified to make a recommendation.

zehyani, you may wish to have him look at the European Brownings, specifically the 425's. They do have the requisite forearm, bbl lengths, no porting, standard Browning Invector [NOT plus]choke tubes, wide rib. The stock dimensions are good. The grip is not overly tight and could be rounded and thinned without hurting anything should that be necessary to meet his need. The stocks are oil finished. I have small hands & have not found the grip on a 20 that I have to be the least cumbersome. Andrew Litt in Wales would be a good source for one of them. They are good solid guns for the money and would meet his cost criteria.

He's had 14 replies to his question, including two from you and one from me.
Merry Christmas