doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Merkel O/U model ID and Value check

The latest issue of Double Gun and Single Shot Journal has an article by Frederick Franzen on the Merkels. I've not yet read it, so I don't know how much it addresses your questions, but the issue just arrived in yesterday's mail, so I thought I'd point you to it if you aren't a subscriber.

Remington40x:

Thanks for the ref. but the article was what sparked this research.



Robert Schuler - I handled this massive Behemoth at the Vintagers. I wanted to check the proofmarks but at the time I couldn't find the owner. I did however find a fella dressed in proper attire with a handlebar mustache that volunteered to be a gun bearer and was just the right height to supply a shoulder as a prop for shooting. You wouldn't have to worry about out pacing the dangerous game. He would have been greatly handicapped by weight of the longarm.

Now I would guess Schuler sourced Merkel for the action.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Information I have read on the Merkel Brothers (Much of it from GGCA magazines, I am sure you have them as well, and supported from other sources such as this site and other internet sites) indicates that fairly early on, the Brothers developed differences of opinion, shall we say, and that both Oscar and Bernard split off and founded their own firms. Both of them, however, seemingly maintained some business relationships at least with the Gebruder Merkel firm, as it seems clear that both obtained parts from GM. I have never seen a side by side Oscar Merkel (may be some, I just have not seen them) nor have I seen an O/U Bernard Merkel (again, may be some, but I have not seen one.) The actions used by both Oscar and Bernard appear so nearly identical to the O/U and the S x S actions used by GM that logic would indicate they purchased actions from the larger GM firm. It's clear, in the case of the two BeMeSu guns I had, that Berhard also obtained forend irons already stamped with the GM shield from the larger firm. Both my side by side BeMeSu guns were 16 gauge, both were scalloped back boxlock actions, and both were finished to a "middle" grade with some decent engraving (game scenes on both) and wood with some figure in it, not just plain wood. The Oscar Merkel O/U guns I have seen were all finished as upper grade guns, with VERY good finish details.

I happened to think of another similarity to the BeMeSu stamp that I am quite sure is Bernard Merkel, Suhl: In addition to the GM in a shield stamp often used by Gebruder Merkel, I am sure you have seen "Geme" sometimes stamped on Gebruder Merkel guns. Again, it's nothing but the first two letters of Gebruder Merkel, just as in BeMeSu. To me, that seems just a further point of evidence.

I am going to try and dig out, from old catalogs that I have, photos of the early gun factories and try and post them. The Simson factory was absolutely enormous, and was said in GGCA publications to be the largest in pre war Europe, not just Germany. That would include being larger than the very large FN facilitis at Leige. J P Sauer also had very large facilities, though smaller than Simson. Gebruder Merkel was a large facility also, but I seem to remember them being somewhere smaller in size than Sauer. Other German makers had FAR smaller gun works, most or at least many being cottage industries, like the photo of the Bernard Merkel works. Comparison of those old photos should be interesting, I'll try to get that done soon.

It's the sheer size of the Simson, Sauer, and Merkel factories that cause me to wonder why in the world they would outsource the manufacture of any parts at all. I believe it will be found to be the opposite, that the large factories forged the various action designs and made the barrels and most parts, and sold forgings and semi finished parts or even completed guns to the smaller "makers", who then finished, embellished them, and in many cases laid claim to "making" them. I know there were other tube makers other than the "Big Three", and that all 3 used Krupp barrels as well as their own, but I believe these 3 firms accounted for at least nearly all the actions. We can't forget the Belgian work force, they supplied parts to German makers as well, apparently.

Still lots of archive digging needed to unravel all the German gun making mysteries.

A very accurate and concisely stated post. I would just add that regarding Sauer, one usually sees the Schilling forge mark. I'm curious if Merkel or Simson outsourced tubes, or if they had a hammer forge.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

An old photo of the Sauer hammer forge is shown in their 1924 catalog, perhaps in others as well, but I have a copy of that one. The recent book by Arfman and Kallmeyer on J P Sauer states that in the early 1940's, at the peak of their output, the J P Sauer factory complex extended over 52,000 sq. meters, some 12.85 acres if the Google converter is accurate. Early GGCA materials on Simson indicate that in the 1924-34 period their complex extended over 25 acres. Simson was located on a river, so power was available, they were twice the size of Sauer at a time 15 years earlier, who knows how they may have grown to the same date used in the Sauer mention, so why would one not expect them to also have a hammer forge? That's certainly not proof that they did, but I tend to think they did. I'll look further as I have more time. I don't think we can rule out the largest gun maker in Europe having their own forge. I can post the Sauer forge photo as well a tad later.

Franzen mentions the single Kersten extension on a combo gun on p. 33, current DGJ.

jack

I guess we should break the 1890-WWII into two groups: 1890-WWI(actually maybe a few years prior to WWI, say 1910) & WWI-WWII. The period of WWI-WWII would have been greatly affected by military production. This allowed them to heavily invest in machinery. But from the mid 1800s to say 1890, they craftmen were divided into distinct tasks.

Zacharias Anschultz,
Caspar Schilling,
Egydius Schilling,
Heinrich Schilling,
Gottfried Klett,
Valtin August Klett,
Gustav August Gruber
& the Jaeger boys, who were also master borers,

all either owned a pipe/tube forge or operated one. From what little I know about the pipe/tube hammer/forge, it wouldn't be under the same roof as the rest of the facility as at the end of a day all would depart deaf and cross-eyed. I'll check with Mike Ford and get his opinion. But many of the Sauer tubes have a Schilling forge stamp as well as a Fraktur/Gothic J which I think to be for the Jaeger. When a "K" is encountered it is usually for one of the Klett boys. So were they subs or were they employed by Sauer? For now I can't say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The term is actually "Weichlot-Verbindung."

Without a doubt, Merkel didn't make their tubes (or assemble them??) as the order form on page 29 of the Autumn 2009 DGJ notes that the tubes/assembled tubes for the 12/9.3X53 were ordered from none other than "L. Kelber" on 3.29.1928 and were delivered on 4.4.1928. Surely he didn't perform all the work in about a week? But L. Kelber is none other than tube maker Louis Kelber of Trubenbachstrasse 1, Suhl. He was a specialist in his field. This shows that in a pinch, and maybe the norm, that a larger concern still sourced the talented craftsmen of Suhl.

And also note at the top of the page Merkel sourced Wilhelm Kelber for the 12(70mm)? tubes during the same period(3.19.1928) and he delivered on 4.11.1928?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For now it seems that Gebüder Merkel had a strong sourcing connection, possibly primary, to Gebrüder Kelber, Louis, Rudolf, Wilhlem, and more than likely didn't make their tubes till post WWII, even after their October 1930 tube joining patent. Paul Schlegelmilch & Franz Schültz were either apprentices at the Brother's Kelber or actually worked there. Any Merkels with Kelber forge marks will aide in putting the overall Suhl gunmaking puzzle together.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Work orders reveal that August Bräutigam was sourced by Merkel as either a frame filer or action maker. I guess August Bräutigam to be a decendent of Franz Bräutigam, royal weapons inspector???, from the mid 1800s, and possibly the son of Franz. Any of you pre-WWII Merkel owners have a "A.B." set of initials on the frame? I don't think August Bräutigam worked at Bernhard Merkel, Gebrüder Merkel or Oskar Merkel but was an independent contractor. New info could prove otherwise.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse