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Joined: Jun 2008
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Sidelock
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Cornish pasties! They should be done under the trades description act! Actually the idea came from my part of the world in Derbyshire when the Derbyshire lead miners went to Cornwall to show them how to mine properly. They took the idea with them. A proper Pasty that 'Owd ay in 'O's snap tin' (translation; that one would have in ones sandwich receptacle) would be one half meat and potato and one half jam (jello in America). The crust would be to hold it by and then thrown for the rats as the fingers would be contaminated with lead dust and poisonous. Even 'Cornish Ware' pottery is actually made in Derbyshire! Nice part of the world though and where I will be going to visit next month; that's if they will have me now.

Sorry to get off topic. Fantastic gun by the way. Lagopus.....

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CBL1 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Kerryman
CBL,
Could you post the wording of the motto beneath the crest? Next week I will be at my other place and have a good book on crests and mottos there and can check what families use it.
Beautiful gun BTW.
Rs
K.


Many thanks Kerryman for the offer and kind comments regarding the gun.

I think the inscription reads something close to "Secundis Dubis Squerectus" and shows a stags head being held aloft by two arms. I have enquired at the College of Arms and am awaiting thoughts (and possible research cost!) on the crest. Any input would be enormously appreciated as I am keen to learn more where possible.

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Hi CBL,
Material for some interesting detective work; unfortunately I have not found a complete answer.

Your gun’s oval has a crest and a motto. The crest is one part of a family’s grant of arms; a motto often but not always forms part of that grant. If both are genuine, their combination should make it possible to identify a family.

To put that task in some perspective, books such as Burke’s Peerage, Landed Gentry, etc., are full of errors and it is generally accepted that more than half the “arms” submitted are bogus / not registered with the proper authorities in England, Scotland or Ireland.

The Motto on your gun is a line taken from the Odes of Horace ‘Secundis dubiisque rectus’ which is translated either ‘Upright both in prosperity and in perils’ or ‘Firm in every fortune’. That motto is used by some individuals in the families of Duncan (Camperdown and Haldane-Duncan), Cleveland and Lippincott.

The Crest, showing a Stags/Harts head cabossed i.e. the head is shown full-faced, without any neck showing, is used by members of several families, among them the Hart, Gernon, Gordon, Thomson, Duff and Calder/Cawdor families. In heraldry antlers represent strength and fortitude. None of my reference books show those names associated with the motto supplied.

My guess is that the Duncan/Camperdown connection could be ruled out as their crests primarily have a naval theme (from the Battle of Camperdown). See their crests here http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-crest-badge.html

The usual crest for Cleveland is a ‘A demi old man proper, habited azure’, (the torso of a man dressed in blue) and only one branch of that family uses the motto inscribed on your gun.
Lippincott is a Devonshire name; I cannot associate the crest with them either.

As far as I can see, there is no link between the crest & motto and the A. Holford Gower name on the guncase. That owner could be :
13 OCTOBER 1887, Thursday HOLFORD-GOWER - SHILSON At Christ Church, Plymouth, October 10, by the Rev. W.E. Roo[me?], M.A., Arthur Holford-Gower, Esq., of Leicester Lodge, West Brighton, Sussex, to Adelaide Dinham, only daughter of the late Capt. William Dinham Shelson, of Trevarrick, St. Austell, and granddaughter of the late William Shilson, Esq., of St. Austell and Tremough, Cornwall.

Unless the College of Arms has a Grant of Arms to an individual, containing both the crest and motto on your gun, it is unlikely that the exact owner could be established through heraldry. Best bet is a hope that Holt’s or previous owner have a record.
Regards
K.

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CBL1 Offline OP
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Superb response Kerryman and thanks for the input which is fascinating. I have contacted the College of Arms who have quoted £60 for further research so I may give that some more consideration.

As regards the wedding reference, I did indeed note that reference in Google a couple of weeks back, but that is the only thing I have been able to dig up to date. Sussex is not a million miles away from Datchet (near Windsor) so it is not unreasonable to hope that perhaps these are the same gentleman.

Either way, I am now looking forward to owning, cherishing and using the gun in the seasons to come, with a couple of days already scheduled on Small Bore's driven shoot this winter

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Pasties are common fare here, probably arrived with the Cornish miners in the mid 19th century who made a specialty out of shaft mining on the goldfields.
The gold they dug up bought a lot of very fine guns to the district.
There - back on topic!
RG

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Originally Posted By: CBL1
...... I have contacted the College of Arms who have quoted £60 for further research so I may give that some more consideration. ...........with a couple of days already scheduled on Small Bore's driven shoot this winter


Thanks CBL.
Glad to be of use.
If you want to do more Internet research, my shot at the heraldic description of the oval is two arms in armour embowed, grasping a stag's head cabossed, attired with twelve tines, with a motto ‘Secundis dubiisque rectus’ below. (Also try caboshed for cabossed)

Were it me, I’d be strongly tempted to try the College of Arms. After all, for 60 quid it means missing just a brace of Dig’s birds!
Enjoy that lovely gun!
K.

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