doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thomas Kilby-Donn-Daly damascus side by side

Probably said before, but here's G T Abbey 12 bore, #47, Chicago, Laminated Steel by TK [Kilby] rising bite, Birmingham proof, trigger guard push opener,

I am the current caretaker of G.T. Abbey #46. A 10 bore, 32 inch Laminated Steel Kilby barrels. Marked 11 ga. Black powder Birmingham proofs. Thumb lever opener. Highly finished metal and wood. Engraved very similar to Daryl's. Can be viewed on Kirby's site as posted in an earlier reply. I acquired a W. W. Greener light 2&7/8 10 and began looking for another and this one fits the bill. Good shooting dimensions and it's two outings on clays have been very nice. I am using RST 1&1/8 oz. loads and a handload using Cheddite primed hulls or Federal hulls with Winchester primers. 19 grains of Red Dot, Remington SP10 wad with a 1/2 inch fiber 16 ga. filler in the shot cup. Closed with a 6 point crimp. Great shooting load and just hammers the clays at all ranges up to 50+ yards. I have shot the Greener with 1&1/8 oz 4&1/4 dram and 1&1/4 with 4 dram black powder loads and it works really well. I liken these to the heavy 12 ga. guns and loads that replaced them in the early 20th century. I favor the light 10 ga. hammer guns of an earlier period. Any further speculation as to Kilby built guns or other Birmingham supplier? (W&C Scott?)

Eric, interesting. Notice the difference in the rising bite design between #46 and #47.

Yes, that is interesting! On #46, the bite does not pierce the extension. Wonder why the change between these two guns? Gun makers whimsy or deliberate design improvement? Does your gun have firing pin springs? I have a Boss 16 ga. hammer gun with the Purdey 2'nd patent thumb lever and really like this kind of opener...just nifty neat design. Hope you enjoy using your Abbey as much as I'm enjoying mine. Weather permitting, I'll have #46 out for clays again tomorrow.

"Eric 375," I am the current temporal owner of the only example of a Wm. Donn-marked gun (William was the younger brother of the better known James, of "Jas. Donn & Bros.," and the elder brother of John, all gunmakers and partners of the Canton, Illinois, hardware business with the gunmaking enterprise at the back of the building, which was sold by James in 1899), formerly owned by Mr. Grimm, the original subject gun of this thread, which is built on a highly refined, marvelously engraved and scalloped W & C Scott body action that evinces standard (no nitro proofs, and is thus pre-1896) Birmingham proof marks of the era (as do the barrel flats), and incorporates their 1892 patented rectangular cross-bolt or "Improved Bolt System." The two sides of its action body are marked immediately below and parallel to the edge of the water-table, "T. Kilby," as are the undersides of the barrels just beyond the barrel flats. I suspect this was the personal gun of William Donn and / or is the exhibition gun said to have been shown at Chicago during the 1893 World's Columbian Exhibition (Should anyone have additional information on another Wm. Donn gun, the history of Wm. Donn, or that addressing the 1893 exhibition gun, identity, and / or its whereabouts, I would be very appreciative.).

The serial number of the Kilby / Wm. Donn gun is "1220," well within the serial number range of guns produced / finished by Heinrich August ("H. A.") Lindner during his and his father's decades long association with Schoverling, Daly & Gales. Mr. Kilby's barrel-maker number, which is also stamped on the underside of the barrels, is "20589." I have attempted to relate his barrel-maker's numbers to build years without success. If anyone has such information or perhaps cataloged the same, it would undoubtedly help establish use and build dates of the guns affixed with T. Kilby barrels. However, one should not confuse this particular "T. Kilby" with the earlier, elder barrel-maker of the same name. The barrel-maker discussed here was a distant relative who happened, by one of those strange flukes of history, to have the same name; and to add more confusion, our second Kilby apprenticed with the original and then later, in the early 1880's, took over the barrel-making business.

Beginning around 1890 or so, the second Thomas Kilby was not only producing high-quality barrels, but had begun coupling his fine barrels with action bodies bought in the trade, and the firm subsequently built / finished entire guns, whether wholly finished or sold to the trade in the white. I suspect this is how the Wm. Donn gun came to be finished and serial-numbered by Lindner, as it unquestionably was, given all the elements of a Lindner-finished gun, or those of his near proprietary outworker-produced guns, it clearly possesses. Certainly the Kilby gun was not finished in the U.S.; there was too little capability to produce or finish a gun to this standard at the time to answer the need, in my opinion.

From my research, which is based on available literature, I can say that "T. Kilby" barrels, some of which are stamped such in block letters or in cursive script (probably in script for Eastern European market tastes), were highly valued and esteemed by a plethora of European, Eastern European, and Russian gunmakers and their knowledgeable gun owners. Depending on when your gun was made, the barrels are by the elder or later Kilby.

G. T. Abbey (circa 1858-1874) was a Chicago maker of deserved renown. And he, like a number of early American gunmakers, had an association with Georg and / or H. A. Lindner, whether separate from or as a result of their business relationship with Schoverling, Daly & Gales, and some of their respective productions are affixed with Kilby barrels, which were equally esteemed in the United States, as would be the firm's barreled actions later available in the nineteenth century. I have seen several America makers' guns employing Prussian and English actions with Kilby barrels, or equally affixed with Lindner's trademark stamps. These American makers included James Donn & Bros, which also employed Prussian-made and U.K.-produced action bodies (many from Westley Richards and W & C Scott) for their guns.

Owning several 10-bore hammer and hammerless guns myself, I have formed a high regard for their versatility and use afield, whether with 2-5/8 or 2-7/8 chambers, and tend to employ RST's cartridges for my shooting purposes, as I do little reloading at this time. These antique 10-bores are nonpareil pheasant guns, in my opinion. All of them have damascus barrels, which I prefer.

Should you have the opportunity, and not already done so, please publish here photographs of your guns, together with photographs of any markings or stamps. There are many Lindner / German / Prussian gun enthusiasts perusing this site, as well as U.K. and European gun authorities, who presumably could answer even more of your questions given that basic information.

Happy New Year, everyone!


Regards,

Edwardian

Eric, as I recall there are no firing pin springs.

Edwardian, I have a 10 bore hammer gun, #2051, thumb opener, Deeley and Edge forend latch, Lindner crown/pistol stamp, marked James Donn and Bros, Canton. Very British looking, but no British stamps.

"Daryl," your 10-bore seems based on the Purdey British patent of the 1860's. I believe F. J. Abbey and Company of Chicago may have assembled hammerguns guns like you describe from components by W & C Scott and labeled them "Charles Daly," as was otherwise done for some of the Lefever patented side-lever productions; or they could have sold these assembled or as separate parts in the white, and perhaps private-labeled the barreled actions for firms such as James Donn & Bros, and others. But so far, I cannot find a photograph or text online, in order to demonstrate or validate the point. I will keep looking.

It has been well established, I believe, in previous posts associated with other threads on this site that Lindner-sourced actions and / or barrels were imported into the U.S. and used as the basis for guns and rifle and gun combinations by American retailers and / or makers. The consensus seems to be that Schoverling, Daly & Gales facilitated this trade as the importer and distributor. There are examples from which to choose to illustrate this point.

Likewise, there exist examples of "Jas. Donn & Bros." guns that employ Prussian and U.K. actions and / or barrel sets. But separate from Jas. Donn & Bros. productions, I hope to ascertain whether another "Wm. Donn" marked gun exists, which I doubt. If another does exist, I would certainly want to see it, and also discover what I can about the one that does exist.

Again, Happy New Year, and all the best in the coming year.


Regards,

Edwardian

Edwardian, I do not have a smart phone or a camera suitable to take pictures. (Every time I think about getting one I see a real nice gun) Photo of the barrel flats is still up on Kirby Hoyt's Vintage Doubles site and can be viewed there. Proof and view marks are the same as those exhibited on Daryl's Abbey shown above. #46 is a 10 ga. chamber with 11 ga. barrels. No other name on the gun but George T. Abbey and Kilby marked barrels. Do you think these two are W&C Scott sourced?

"Eric 375," because of the presence of Birmingham proofs, the guns could have been sourced from either W & C Scott or Isaac Hollis & Son. Like Scott, Hollis was another known source for hammer-gun actions and barreled actions prior to Georg Lindner's earliest involvement with the importer, Schoverling, Daly & Gales.

But because Schoverling, Daly & Gales almost exclusively sourced W & C Scott in the 1860's and early 1870's for its Charles Daly hammer-guns prior to its contact and subsequent sourcing agreement with Prussian master gunmaker Georg Lindner, which was prior to son Heinrich's succession to the business later in the decade, and because not much in terms of the importation of firearms from overseas occurred without this major New York importer's / retailer's / wholesaler's involvement for much of the last quarter of the nineteenth century, my opinion is that the subject hammer-guns were sourced from W & C Scott, or at least their components.

Given the end user's skills, such as those demonstrably possessed by Abbey, Schafer or Donn for example, proprietary or inventive alternations could be made once imported constituents parts were acquired and ready for assembly, if not already fully assembled or even completely finished and ready to retail when arrived. Alterations could include the addition of side-levers or thumb releases on the Purdey-patented pattern.


Regards,

Edwardian