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Ok! Upon further reading, Harry corrects his Flannery answer to be "We were getting all our barrels forged, rough drilled and rough turned from Belgium. We were purchasing them from either Samual Buckley & Co. or from J. D. Riga & Co. and it was not until two or three years later that we began purchasing those barrels from the Flannery Bolt Co."
Pete, you nailed it! Great work!
So.. Can we say that Ithaca barrels marked SB&Co. from this era were commodity Belgium barrels imported by Buckley and so stamped? And nothing to do with Sanderson Bros.?

Lovely bird-dogging on all fronts. But are there any other import houses that have their initials stamped on the Belgian tubes near the lower rib? Does there exist a set of tubes stamped "Crown Steel" atop with "SB&Co" on each tube near the lower rib? Was "Crown Steel" an American brand/trademark or was it Belgian?

Stallones: are there any stamps on the tubes near the lower rib ahead of the barrel flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ithaca marked the SC in the barrel steel column for crown steel implying it was a 'special steel'? Stallones, PM me your sn and I will check it out.

It appears that there may exist at least 3 possiblities on a longarm with the "SB&Co" stamp:

1. Ithaca, Hunter Arms & Lefever all sourced their tubes from Belgium thru Samuel Buckley & Company.

2. Hunter Arms & Lefever sourced from Sanderson while Ithaca sourced from Belgium.

3. The stamp "SB&Co" is time dependent and after the McKinley Act and prior to WWI Ithaca, Hunter Arms & Lefever sourced their tubes from Sanderson Brothers, a facility under the Crucible Steel Company of America.

I believe almost all fluid steel tubes were crucible.
Walt can you interpret the elements noted with the percentages from the legal pad?

Phosphorus
Sulfur
Silicon
Chromium

Vandium?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Walt,

A lot of good questions, but few real answers. I do know that a Riga was importing barrels from 1886 on. They were descendents of a Belgian barrel maker, G.J. Riga, and had come here for the 1876 Philadelphia Exposition. The son, J.G. Riga stayed on and became an importer. His son, J.C. Riga continued in his father's business. I have part 1 of a 2 part 1940 interview with him that was published. Been looking for part 2 for some years now.


Here is a site, in French that documents a small part of the import business.
http://heuse.spahistoire.info/chinhotcanondamas.html

I believe S.B.&Co to be Sanderson Steel as I stated above. Crown Steel does not match any Belgian trade name. A caveat, I have only recorded 1,200 Belgian trade marks / names so far. I have at least another 1,000 to compile, just never find the time or motivation to complete the task.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

I would guess Crown Steel is a more a marketing name than a direct trade name. But I am guessing. Any original source material showing otherwise would be appreciated. Did the Riga's stop importing and become brokers of domestic barrels over the years? I don't know.

Pete

I agree with Peter and for now still hold that "SB&Co" is a variety of alloy/steel with certain element percentages that were a closely guarded secret by either the Sanderson Brothers or the Crucible Steel Company of America.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Here is a printed analysis. I think the numbers are in percentages. Also, in the same file is a 1919 letter from the then plant manager, A. P. Curtis requesting an analysis of a Belgium gun barrel AND, coincidently, the analysis is identical. I trust the Belgium makers had perfect batch control?? or Ithaca used these data for the court case?? Oh no, it must be just a coincidence---
Pete, Not sure I am ready to totally agree on the mark. We don't know if or how these barrels were marked but the absence of Sanderson in all this Ithaca record causes me pause at your conclusion. Hopefully, something definitive will come to the front.

Walt,

I would love to be proved wrong in my assumptions. Thanks for sharing the correspondence.

Pete

I still think the issue is time dependent as Samuel Buckley, Manhattan didn't incorporate until July 1921: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B05EFDB1731EF33A25753C2A9619C946095D6CF , that is if I have the correct Samuel Buckley(lower left portion of the article).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It appears that the rare earth metals peddler Samuel Buckley & Company, London & NY(100 William Street, NY) and the Belgian tube importer Samuel Buckley & Company were two different, independent firms. Rare earth metal Samuel Buckley & Company(Printer?) is most of the time noted as "Successors of Samuel Buckley" with Wilfred Buckley(occasionally Wilfred L. Wood) d.b.a. or trading as "Samuel Buckley & Company". It had a strong emphasis in silver was was an agent for J. Starkie Gardner in the U.S. of A. Circa 1901 there was a tit for tat suit between Ernest O. Jacobsen and Wilfred Buckley trading as Samuel Buckley, http://books.google.com/books?id=cm8LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA842&dq=samuel+buckley+and+company&lr= , which was heard by the NY Supreme Court, but for now I don't know the specifics. Also about the same time rare earth metal peddler Samuel Buckley & Company tried to dance with the NY Appraiser and either A.G. Spalding & Brothers was involved or in a similar sinking ship. Or A.G. Spalding and Wilfred Buckley trading as Samuel Buckley of London & NY were on opposite ends of the judicial stick.

1899 Advert. of Samuel Buckley & Company peddling Henley golf balls:
http://books.google.com/books?id=W57GAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PR26&dq=samuel+buckley+and+company .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse