doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com R. Grove hammer gun

Do any of you hammer gun fans know when and where this gun was made? Any info on R Grove? This gun is a 10 ga with 32" barrels. R. Grove is on each lock plate and the top rib. It has one of the most elaborate top ribs I've ever seen. There is a 3 leaf clover in the dolls head that may be gold. It could be brass but I don't see any green around it from age. It is matted very much like a Parker. There is a number 5 on the barrel flats and the forend. In the forend wood is stamped with the number 25302 under the left tube and 22 in the center. It has some quality engraving on it. The stock has a horn butt plate and is cracked thrue the wrist. On the water table is stamped with what looks like crossed hammers or picks with what looks like an A between the handels and something that I can't make out underneath. It is stamped on each side. [img][/img] [img][/img] [img][/img] [img][/img]

I looked over a Grove 10 ga hammer gun in Alabama a few years back...looked pretty well made. Sadly it had sewer pipes for barrels (severly pitted).
I could've got it for $400 but passed because of the nasty bores.

Could you show a picture of the inside of the locks ?

I'd say the crack could be fixed by the right guy....if it had good bores and the price was right I'd go for it.

The left tube passed thru the Birmingham proofhouse between 1875 & 1887. The mark on the watertable you refer to is probably a crowned set of crossed scepters. It might be a 10 bore, but the right tube may be a thick brass 12 bore.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

sAy what....

Might just be a tightly barrelled 10 bore. Never seen a 12/10 combination. Does it chamber a ten bore cartridge freely in both barrels? Black powder proof gun. I can only find details of one Grove and that was a James in Birmingham but was later than the date of your gun. I have found a Robert Groves (different spelling) in Richmond, Yorkshire but he pre dates your gun. It will all rest on the condition of the barrels. Interesting gun and worth checking out for usability.

It seems that more of these old British 10 bores turn up in America than here back in Britain. I have a job finding them. Lagopus.....

Could simply be a proof house stamping error! Suggest that you measure the chamber dimensions; If I am correct Chamber sizes will be near identical and right bore diameter will be greater than .751 [Likely 11G.]. I have seen a similar error in the past!

In part the lack of could be because you guys outlawed 10's in the Pigeon rings.

This gun will take a 10ga shell. I was able to chamber and close the gun on a factory roll crimped 10 magnum shell. I did feal a little resistance at the end as the shell slid into the forcing cone. I measured the bore at the muzzle. It appears to be.765R and .760L. This is the best I can come up with by using the tool sold by Brownells that is made like scisors. The tool will only go in 3" so I may be measuring some of the choke in the left barrel. I can see that the left barrel has a choke and the right appears to be cylinder. This gun is heavy. The barrels are pitted but they don't seem to be deep. I would think they could be honed out with safety since the barrels appear to be pretty thick. I don't have a barrel wall measuring tool. Rear of the chamber measures .852. Joe, I will post a picture of the lock interior later. It appears Roy is right in that this gun has 11ga barrels. Is there any possibility that this gun was finnished here in the states with imported metal work? Maybe R. Grove was an American. What do you make of the number stamped in the forearm wood? I would say that the #5 on the steel parts is the serial # although it isn't visible on the action. This gun came from the Baltimore area so it may have seen alot of waterfowl hunting. I believe that the stock can be repaired also. The action is fairly loose but since I am a welder I could fix that. This will be a restoration project for my retirement. I have a few of those. The price was right on this one,free. It's a wall hanger now but I think it could be an attractive gun when restored.

It is a 10 gauge, 11 gauge bore and choked to 12 gauge at the muzzle. Nothing unusual about it for the time period it was made. Typical black powder proofs.

HomelessJoe, I think the ten was never that popular here as anyone wanting a big bore for wildfowl went to an 8 or even a 4 and then the 12 magnum 3" sort of eclipsed it.

Tanky, I would strongly bet that the gun will have 2 5/8th. inch chambers. Most from that era were. Lagopus.....

Hard to beat free...I'd get a professional to do any work I had done on it. (forget your local gunsmith and lock up your welder)

lagopus...

The 12 magnum 3" "eclipsed" the 10 ga. here in the states but I didn't think the 3" 12 was that popular over there....In all my searching it's kind of a rarity to see a 3" magnum English 12 ga.

I'm finding it hard to believe that a 10 ga. is rarer than an 8 ga. in England...the prices that even the low quality 8's bring doesn't follow this line of thinking.

The stock chequering is not in the English style. Could of course be a restock by a North American gunsmith. The possibility dose exist that the gun was made up in the U.S.A. from imported components.
At the time when this gun was made there were out-workers in the English trade who made complete guns for their own benefit.These people would often choose the name of a deceased gun maker to apply to the guns they intended to sell.I have seen examples of breech loading guns bearing the name of maker that was long dead before the advent of the breech loader.

Robert Groves is listed in Nigel Brown's book "BRITISH GUNMAKERS" as being in Market Place, Richmond, Yorkshire 1840-42 (too early for your gun) There was a James Grove, Armsmaker, 19 (back of) Whittall Street, Birmingham c. 1905 - c.1920 and Joseph Groves, Lockmaker, Ct. 7 Walsall Street, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, 1873-74 and William Groves, 31 Oliver Street, Birkenhead, Cheshire c. 1883. Several more that were much earlier.

Hope That This Helps....Best Regards....George

The number of 10G hammer guns that I have seen in the past in S.W.Ontario is surprising! I believe this results from the fact that they were the weapon of choice of serious duck hunters during the late 1800,s. At one time I had some spectacular 10.G Hammer Guns in my collection, including examples by,W.R.and H&H. But by far the most interesting, was a ball and shotgun made and exhibited by J.& W. Tolley,at the Philadelphia International Exhibition of 1876.This splendid gun was profusely engraved with North American scenes
These days Vintage IO.G. guns seldom show up in the Ontario market.

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Tanky did you ever get that inside photo ?

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Nothing special here Joe. Looks slighly better than an LC Smith field grade lock.

I thought it was a back locked action....I'm wondering if it's a Belgium made gun with Birmingham proofs.

That back action lock on a bar lock plate was a typical type for The Midland Gun Company of Birmingham. They mad a 10 called The Farmer's hammer gun, I think, which could be had in 12, 10, or 8. I will have to check if that is the model. They made a lot for the trade and various unusual names can be found on guns by them. Does it by any chance say the words 'Solid bar' on the action flats? Lagopus.....

That is a back action isn't it?...Geo

lagopus, there is nothing stamped on the action flats accept the crossed scepters. What do you think of the clover on the dolls head? Just some decoration or something more.

Yes it is. I think these locks are the type Joe was thinking about.



I owned a Greener once that had something similar inlayed in gold on the dolls head but I can't remember what it was. It very well could have been a cloverleaf.

Could be a club gun.As I recall, some Scott guns had a gold inlaid star, these guns were usually engraved,"Bogardus Gun Club." There is no intent to suggest this is a Scott gun! The purpose was simply to point out that some gun clubs of the era added a symbol such as a star to members guns.

The back sprung locks on the Grove defeat the whole purpose of the bar action sidelock....I've never saw a lock on a Scott of that low quality.

The only stars I've saw on Scotts were on Victoria grades and some Exlentia grades.

Tanky, I can't help there and wonder if it was a later addition. The only Gunmaker who used an ace of clubs as a trade mark was Thomas Wild but he put that inside the heart, diamond and spade. Not all Midland guns were marked Solid Bar, that had that type of action, but it was a sort style they had making out that the gun looked like a full bar action and could be engraved like one but that the action had less cut away so was therefore stronger. The 1937 clatalogue lists the Farmer's Hammer Gun in 10 bore as an option at £9 5 shillings; it was a bar plate back action like yours but by then it had a cross bolt type closure. It could be an early one as it has some similarity and their guns didn't always follow the details printed in the catalogue. I had a 20 bore of theirs which had a top rib extension in the form of an ace of clubs or clover leaf shape. Sadly I no longer have it. It was the Demon model but not as shown in their catalogue.

Can you tell me if it has any other trade marks or initials on the barrels? Lagopus.....

Don't you think if it made for a "stronger action" the better makers would have been making them like that ?

The solid body action is stronger because there is no need to cut slots in the bar of the action to clear the main springs as required on bar action side locks. This increase the strength of the action. Charles Lancaster used back action sidelocks on his 12/20 gun. This undoubtedly allowed him to reduce the weight of the gun without compromising the strength of the action.

I have a copy of the Midland Gun company catalogue of circa 1890
This catalogue provides illustrations of their back action lock.
As stated by lapogus, they are exactly the same design as those fitted to the Grove gun.In this catalogue the gun that most closely resembles the Grove gun is their "Demon" Gun which at that time sold for 5 pounds stirling.

The bar action side locked hammer gun is the pinnacle of hammer guns.

Purdey among others built all kinds of back action guns until they figured out the bar action side lock was superior.

Sorry I don't see the argument for strength.....

One function of the Side lock bar action was to protect the stock from main spring breakage....hanging the main springs behind the hammers defeats this feature.

A quote from the Modern Shotgun,By Sir Gerald Burrard,Vol,1 PAGE 79 "I do not think that any unbiased person could deny that the back action sidelock is the stongest action with the bar action side lock next and the box lock a poor third."

Thank you for the interesting info guys! I've learned something about this gun but there are still some questions. Maybe they can't be answered! Lagopus, the photo I posted of the barrel stamps isn't the greatest. There are no other stamps on the barrels. However because of the photo quality you cannot really see the stamp "NO 4" stamped above the "12" on the right tube. Then there is a number 5 on the barrel flats that matches the "5" on the forend iron. I believe this could be a serial number but have not been able to find one at this point on the action. I have only had the locks out of the action for photos and have not taken it apart any further. Are there any records surviving from Midland? The number 25302 is stamped into the forend wood. Maybe this is a Midland serial No and the #5 is the serial No of the gunsmith that finnished it here in the states. I believe that Roy said earlier that this gun is not checkered in the British style. Although quite worn it looks to me that this checkering was pointed up and not of the flat style typical of British checkering. Also does the rib matting seem out of place on a Britsh finnished gun. This matting requires a machine and it looks alot like Parker matting. Another interesting feature on this gun is the tangs are very long. Top tang right to the comb and bottom tang almost to the grip bottom. But it failed to prevent stock breakage thrue the grip. It's been well over 100 years since this gun was made so maybe some one restocked it and did an upgrade.

I don't agree based on the fact that if he was correct they would never have went out of favor with the big makers. I'm not up on Double rifles from what I've saw they seem to have developed a little slower than shotguns....action wise.

Sadly Midland Gun's records fell foul to the attentions of Hitler's bombing campaign in the last war. The wavy lines on the rib, as you say are similar to Parkers, this is another fairly typical feature of Midland Guns, although not exclusively. The number 25302 could be one of their numbers. I have about half a dozen guns by this Maker and all are later than yours and with higher serial numbers as expected. They were into six figure number before the last war.

Quite true, the checkering is not typical British style but again there are exceptions. I have a gun by John Fry of Derby with the same style of checkering.

I have a Demon model in 12 bore that is a later gun and by then it has the cross bolt closure. The 20 bore Demon that I did have (wish I still had) had a top rib extension that was in the shape of an ace of clubs and fitted a slot in the action of the same shape. I can't remember the number but it was a fairly early model with damascus barrels. I would be interested if your catalogue, Roy, shows this feature. Lagopus.....

The #5 is likely a manufacturing lot control number.Low cost guns of this period were made in small batches,[often out sourced]from components that were not completely interchangeable. Each gun in the batch was hand finished to acceptable standards and the control # was stamped on the key components so as to ensure to ensure that they stayed together through to completion of the gun.It is surprising that #5 is not evident on the action of the Grove.Perhaps when the action is stripped and cleaned you may discover a #5 stamped some where on the action. In the case of more expensive guns the serial # of the gun was used for lot control.

Lapogus; my Midland catalogue shows hammer guns with dolls head rib extensions and Greener cross bolts.The "Demon' gun shows a third bite in the dolls head. No sign of an ace of clubs/clover leaf rib extension![ In the past I have owned best guns of the same era that Clabrough made that used used the clover leaf rib extension]

Back action locks are not out of favour!Holland and Holland,s new "Paradox" gun is a back action side lock!See Double Gun Journal spring 2009, Page 133.

Thanks Roy. It is the only Midland that I came across with this feature. Just sorry I parted with it. Someone in the Trade said he wanted it for his young son so I sold it to him for what I had given. It wasn't long before it was being offered in his shop for a decent markup. I didn't get stung that way again. Lagopus.....