doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Importing an 1885 H&H Rook Rifle (.410 Conversion)

I just bought a Holland & Holland side lever converted Rook Rifle (converted to .410) in London. The serial number is 102X4 which according to Blue Book is in a missing serial range. However, ser's: 10850 - 10999 are made in 1887. I am estimating mine to be made in 1884 - 1885. The barrel says, WINNERS OF ALL THE FIELD RIFLE TRIALS 1883. It was originally chambered in .295

Question: What does it take to import this gun to the US? If it is over 100 years old, do I still require import paperwork? I will be returning with two other shotguns which required importation permits to the US. I am a US Citizen. Does this fall under "Antique" and not require an import permit? What paperwork do I need at Heathrow for departure and in the US for arrival?

Thanks,

PBF

Do you have a UK Visitors Shotgun Permit?

Just taking a guess, since you'll have the guns in your posession while you're in the country, you need one to be perfectly legal.

That is unless there's some purchase loophole that I'm unaware of.

I don't think they'll give you much trouble at Heathrow, but have your paper in order when you come back into the US. Print out whatever you can find that lists the serial number range on the gun so you can prove it's an antique and have your bill of sale right handy as well.

As far as import paperwork I'd start trying to call the goverment folks and ask questions. It's usually time consuming to get a straight answer from the ATF. I've exported guns before but never brought one back in unless I took it out with me as well.


Destry

Destry-
Thanks. I have three on my UK Shotgun Certificate. Two have been processed and have the necessary paperwork to get back in the US. I believe these are on a form 6. I spoke two the importer who processed the two and they told me no problem to import if it older than 1898. No forms required. I will go by H&H and see if I can get a letter stating the date it was made. I will also copy the blue book serialization pages. I printed out a Holt's estimate for similar gun coming up for auction. I will also have a bill of sale.

Thanks again.

PBF

PBF - Be sure you notify your airline well ahead of time that you will arrive with guns. To my knowledge, UK Export will have to write each gun off of someone's license and that someone must be present. UK doesn't recognize the rook rifle as an antique and requires it be on a license. If you can put it on yours, I think you are OK, but I'd for sure call UK Customs and confirm. You will need to visit Customs and they will want to see the serial before the gun(s) ships. The airline will probably provide you an escort to Customs, and he will walk the gun to the luggage container once the guns clear Export.

The rooker doesn't even have to be declared coming into USA, although, I would do so. If you have presuasive documentation as to the serial date, you should be perfectly OK.

Thanks Rocketman. The Rook is on my UK cert. I called H&H today and they will see what they can do to provide me a statement that it was produced prior to 1898 on H&H letterhead. They told me serialization records on the Rooks were poor...

If the rook gun was made in 1887 then it is considered an antique in the UK actually. It's not an obsolete caliber but still considered an antique as it's over 100 years old. That is unless the rules have changed somehow in the last five years when I did my last gun shipping over there.


Destry

With the H&H affidavit, I had no problem getting this to the US.

Thanks for all the help.

Market Hunter, you are part way there. With firearms in the U.K. the age is not the issue. A 12 bore shotgun over 100 years old would still not be classed as an antique because it can shoot conventional readily available ammunition. The cut off date is actually pre 1939 and referes to 'Obsolete Calibres' and includes 10 bores with short chambers, 8 bores, 4 bores , 14, 24, and 32 bores and rifles and pistols for which ammunition is no longer 'readily available' AND is not intended to be used but kept as a curiosity. It comes under section 57 of the Firearms Act 1968 and later Home Office guidance. If the Holland & Holland was still a .295 Rook Rifle it would be classed as an obsolete calibre and could be freely purchased and owned by anyone; a five year old could, in theory, just walk into the shop, buy it and walk out into the street with it without committing any offence. It would only require to go onto a Firearm Certificate if the owner intended to use it. If only owned as a curiosity then there is constraints. However, this one has been converted to .410 so now it needs to be held on a Shotgun Certificate and is NOT classed as an antique because of its calibre irrespective of its age. I own and shoot Rook Rifles. I will sometimes just buy one with no paperwork and then deceide to use it and so have it included on my Firearms Certificate. No one makes ammo for them so it is a do-it-yourself excercise. In the U.K. previous conversion to shotgun reduces the value to about 1/3 what it would have been if left original. A great many were converted some years ago because they became of little value as ammunition was no longer available. Whilst in the U.K. it would not be an antique; however, when it gets to America its status may change. Hope this sheds a little light on our odd Firearms legislation. Lagopus.....