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ellenbr Offline OP
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In 1845 a rich coal deposit was found near Kladno and the Vojtech Smelting Works was founded by Vojtech Lana and the Klein brothers with Vojtech’s name. In 1857 the Prague Ironworks Company was formed and Austrian Karl Wittgenstein, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wittgenstein , became director after getting his start at a works in Teplitz and working up to director in 1877. Just prior to this in 1873 he married Leopoldina Kallmus. Vienna must have been a retail outlet or sales office but there could have been facilities there. At any rate he obtained and held an iron and steel monopoly in Bohemia and Moravia and was a buddy of Andrew Carnegie. He became the director of the Prague Ironworks Company and hung out his own shingle in 1889 by founding the Poldi Ironworks(Poldihutte) about 30 km outside of Prague, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladno . Poldi was named after his wife Leopoldina’s nickname, Poldi, or his pet name for her. In 1893 Poldi Ironworks applied for a trademark which was a image or likeness of a woman or Leopoldina with a 5 sided star above her head, which stood for the 5 continents of which Poldi Ironworks intended on dominating. Littlegun has a page on which the tubes of a Gastinne Renette that have the trademark: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20e%20f/a%20falla%20gb.htm (if someone would post pic 3 of the stamp I’d appreciate it).
Poldi had several types of steel:
Poldi Anti-corro – I guess it may have been high chromium iron
Poldi Elecktro – more than likely electric ovens like Roechling
Poldi Nickel Steel – probably high content nickel made in an acid open hearth
W02 – can’t say if it was barrel steel but I think auto(Thunderbolt??)
Victrix Special(Airplanes?) and I’m sure others.
But what began this search was the arrival of the latest GGCA publication which is a reprint of a Fred Adolph catalogue. And in it is an article on page “Fifty-Four” is entitled “Poldi “Anticorro” Steel” which is an extract from “Outer’s Book”. Adolph gives Poldi steel as being “Poldi Anti-corro Steel Works of Vienna”, as does E.C. Crossman and Lieut. Townsend Whelen in other similar publications. And after reading M. Petrov’s post http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthrea...e6172d7d6ab57c4 I begin to wonder if either of the 3 knew anything about Poldi Steelworks. Now there could have been a facility in Vienna and that is what I am searching for. Anyone have any info on Poldi “Anti-Corro” Steel Works in Vienna, Austria? I've found a reference in "Sporting Goods Dealer 1911 Catalog" but I don't have a copy.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 05/06/09 12:28 AM.
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Ellenbr,
Thanks for the interesting and useful information. Now I know a little bit more about the steel works that made the "Poldi Elektro-Steel" in my BRNO ZP-49 guns.

Last edited by Ron Vella; 05/06/09 08:02 AM.
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ellenbr Offline OP
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Ron:

I think I have more info on some of the BRNO longarms. I didn't want to overload folks with too much of my steel stories. Now this is from the catalogue so take it with a grain of salt for now. But Adolph does mention using the Anticorro steel in rifles and shotguns and on one occassion someone loaded a 16 bore with 930 grains of black and 930 grains of shot. It burst and they set it out in the weather for a week to see if it would rust. He notes "but rust failed to appear" which makes me guess it had a high chromium content.

By the way Poldi-Kladno was hugh and thought to be somewhat private after the late 1980s change. It could well be that government control/monoply forced a failure and devistated the area. Sound familiar?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 05/06/09 08:19 AM.
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Originally Posted By: Ron Vella
Now I know a little bit more about the steel works that made the "Poldi Elektro-Steel" in my BRNO ZP-49 guns.


Ron, did you ever get around to building a double rifle project from a BRNO? You and I corresponded about that some years ago...Geo

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ellenbr Offline OP
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Regarding Elektro I may have been mistaken and Poldi used the – Fredrik Adolf Kjellin(Stockholm) furnace and not the Hermann Roechling Elektro furance: http://books.google.com/books?id=gBdDAAA...p;lr=#PPA193,M1 . I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but Fredrik Adolf Kjellin in 1900 pushed the well known iron mill at Gysinge, Sweden to the forefront of steel technology by the use of the electric furnace or using the aid of electricity to produce steel. The mill closed in 1926. But Fredrik Adolf Kjellin holds a 1905 patent for the process: http://www.google.com/patents?id=Qt9bAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 . And Hermann Roechling applied for a patent or similar technology, or an advance of existing technology, in 1906: http://www.google.com/patents?id=upMPAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 . I can't say Kjellin and Roechling were seperate entities for now or weren't connected in some way.

As a side note, Erich Becker of Germany, Dr. of Engineering?, was responsible for some of the advances at Poldi: http://www.google.com/patents?id=YbRAAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 05/06/09 10:42 AM.
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Deciphering OLD German is beyond my capabilities so anything more than the pictures is up to you.



MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




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ellenbr Offline OP
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MP: Nice ref. on the steel types and trademarks. I'll take anything I can get.

I may have posted some of this info before and I hope it was similar.

One note on Karl Wittgenstein is that he was able to work his way up at the Teplitz Rolling Mill from draftsman to owning 2/5s of the total number of shares. There was a power struggle between the president of the Teplitz Rolling Mill and the Director Paul Kupelwieser, who just happened to be related by marriage to Karl Wittgenstein’s wife. So when the chips fell where they may, Wittgenstein came out on top. Some sources give their marriage in 1874, but 1873 experienced a huge down turn in the economy.

Without getting too involved let’s see if we can get a timeline on the ZP Models. All the ones I’ve handled were sidelocks with coil springs and I think the toplever spring was also of the coil variety. They had the Purdey Nose and were choked extra full left and modified right. I could be mistaken, but the Models were ZP 47, ZP 49, ZP 50, etc(ZP749??). surfaced after WWII and up till 1950 and continued in production. For now I think the “ZP” to stand for Zbrojovka Praga as a possible reference or name resurrection. The Communist were in control in 1948 so arms after then should be marked “Narodny Podnik” / State Enterprises. But lets go back in time a bit to post WWI in 1918 when A. Nowtony formed Zbrojovka Praga in Prague. He and his clan of gunsmiths were manufacturing the Praga pistols and perfecting the Praga M-24 alloy machine-gun. His list of gunsmiths at least contained the names of Emanuel, Frantisek and Vaclav Holek, Karel Krnka and Frantisek Myska.
Emanuel Holek was an apprentice to J. Nowotny of Prague and after Zbrojovka Praga was liquidated in 1926, joined Ceska Zbrojovka of Strakonice and then in 1927 was on to Zbrojovka Brno in 1927.
Vaclav Holek(1886-1954) apprenticed in Pisek before working in Vienna in 1905 for Mulacz. Five years later he was back with Nowotny of Prague making H&H style sidelock scatterguns. Then he joined his brother Emanuel at Zbrojovka Praja researching the Praga M-24 and moved on to Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, Brno after the 1926 liquidation. This fella could be the source of the ZP design.
Frantisek Holek(1894-1951) worked in Moscow and joined the Zbrojovka Praja ground in 1919 straightaway to chief of design. Upon the 1926 liquidation, Frantisek left to work for Frantisek Janecek, electrical engineer, who had attempted a business at tool, die and precision instrument which failed and sent he back to marking weapons in Prague about the time the Zbrojovka Praja experience failure. Janecek was into ammo, arms and autos.
Karel Krnka(April 6th, 1858 – Feb. 25th, 1926) was more of a theorist in gun design as well as writer. He apprenticed to his father, Sylvestr Krnka, who had been an apprentice to the Viennese gunamker Nowtony in the 1840s. Considering expiring in 1926, I don’t think he had much to do with the ZP series.
Frantisek Myska of Dvory at the age of 14 in 1913 was an apprentice to gunmaker Bedrich Kopriva of Nymburk(active from 1890 – 1925) from 1913 to 1917. On his Journeyman walkabout he worked for Austrian Emil Skoda, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Works & http://www.quel.nl/Toeleveranciers/skoda-steel/19041 , who in 1869 purchased the workshop of Graf Arnost after being deported from Germany due to the 7 Weeks War in 1866. Skoda made arms as well as opened a steel process facility in 1884. But getting back to Myska, he attended the technical college in Prague from 1919 to 1921 and joined Zbrojovka Praga in 1922. He designed pistols as well as the CZ 241 auto-loader.

Now onto the different Czech Zbrojovka companies. Karel Bubla found the South Bohemian Arms Company, Jihoceska Zbrojovka, in 1919 to make the 6.35mm Fox pistols by hand and mechanization didn’t occur until 1920. Man and material was moved to Strakonice in early 1921. Ceska Zbrojovka(CZ – Bohemian Arms Company), Prague was formed in 1922 by uniting Jihoceska Zbrojovka and the Hubertus Company, which one I’m not sure of. But at this union and founding of CZ, the government shifted the pistol making operation of Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, (ZB – Czechoslovakian Arms Company), Brno to CZ at Prague, which made tools as of 1928, bicycles in 1930 and motorcycles in 1934. And in 1955 due the auto and motorcycle effort, a sub was as Ceske Zavody Motocyklove which I think was a name change of an earlier 0.22” caliber sporting division under the Zavody name. ZB was formed in 1923 to absorb/purchase the government entity of Ceskoslovenske Zavody na Vyrobu Zbrani(CSZ –Czechoslovakian Factory for Military Products, Brno, which was a small arms factory or refurb facility which began in 1919 to refurb Mauser and Mannlicher rifles. If I’m not mistaken, CZ-N.P.(Ceska Zbrojovka Narodny Podnik(State Entity/Enterprise) makes sporting weapons in Brno and some of the aforementioned gunsmiths were instrumental in beginning the ZP Side by Side series. CZ-USA - http://www.cz-usa.com/about_cz_ub.php and CZ- http://www.czub.cz/ .

Ceska Zbrojovka(CZ – Bohemian Arms Company), Prague

Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, (ZB – Czechoslovakian Arms Company), Brno

Ceskoslovenske Zavody na Vyrobu Zbrani(CSZ –Czechoslovakian Factory for Military Products, Brno

Any and all feel free to correct or help me sort it out.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 05/06/09 10:16 PM.
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George,
Yes I built a .450 #2 NE with an additional set of 12 gauge barrels, fitted to the same frame. You can see photos of it at the link below.

Best,
Ron.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=69475&an=0&page=1#Post69475

Last edited by Ron Vella; 05/06/09 09:42 PM.
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I scanned the pages from a book dated 1930 and although hard to read it does say Vienna (Wien).



If I read this correctly it says, Poldi Ironworks Kladno and Vienna.

Sometime before WWI Whelen wrote an article about Poldi and if I can find it I'll copy it. I believe that I also read that Adolph was the Poldi representative in the USA for them.


MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




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ellenbr Offline OP
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Thanks MP and I did attempt to read some of it. I did find the
Cockerill – Poldi reference is interesting. For now about all I could find are just references to Poldihutte, Wien. But the office address pre-WWI was #7 Invalidenstrasse, Vienna. Along with Klando engineers Whilacek & Hatlanek, Fridolin Reiser of Vienna had some part in developing special tool steel with the addition of chromium, tungsten, titanium and molybdenum. The steel might have been called “Maximum Special” steel. I found the terms TiegelguSSstahl-Fabrik & TiegelGuSSstahlwerke for Poldihutte of Wien which is either a sauce pan making facility or a crucible steel facility where I was guess iron was mixed with chromium, tungsten, titanium and molybdenum to get the special barrel/tool steel. Poldihutte, Wien must have been a speciality facility but one would think more info would be available.
But in addition to naming Poldihutte after his wife Leopoldina, in Kladno Wittgenstein name Rudolfhutte after his son Rudolf.

Regarding penning articles on arms, Adolph could be considered "the W.W. Greener" of the U.S. of A.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 05/07/09 10:38 AM.
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