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#145361 - 04/24/09 04:54 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter
Boltman Offline
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Posts: 144
The E-10 is contemporary with the M-10 Sporter. It was a somewhat more economical model and as you can see, it has an exposed magazine vs. the M-10's hidden magazine. The E-10 shares the same action as the M-10 and their military cousin, the Mark III. A frequent source of confusion among the later Ross rifles is the receiver marking - M-10. The M-10 Sporter was marked M-10 as were about seven other models. This E-10 is marked M-10 and the MkIII's were marked M-10. In fact, I recall when I purchased this rifle it was advertised as an M-10. As I explained to the seller that it was not an M-10 he was struggling with taking the opinion of someone he had never met vs. the rifle he was holding in his hands which was clearly marked, M-10!








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#145362 - 04/24/09 05:00 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
BrentD Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
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So, how does it shoot?

Are these particularly strong or weak actions? I seem to recall hearing something about this issue and this rifle but don't recall. For those of us for which the name Ross means nothing whatsoever, can you describe a little bit of where the rifle was made, what its intended uses were, and whatever else might be pertinent (caliber etc)? It does look different - even to me.

Brent
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#145363 - 04/24/09 05:01 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
RHD45 Offline
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Nice rifle. I am wondering do you have any qualms about shooting these given the horror stories? I know the incidents happened because the rifle was assembled incorrectly,but wonder if that gives anyone pause when firing one of these.I hear they are very accurate and nicely made.How many were produced in sporter configuration?

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#145368 - 04/24/09 05:24 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: RHD45]
John Can. Offline
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I believe the problem with the Ross was not a question of strenght for the designed cartridge but the fact that it was easy to re-insert the bolt incorrectly after removal causing, shall we say a few "problems". Had one for a few years never had a problem. Perhaps some one more knowledgable will chime in. --- John Can.

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#145369 - 04/24/09 05:46 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: John Can.]
Krag 1902 Offline
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The 1910 Model 280 Ross would blow back its bolt, but only if the bolt had been disassembled and re-assembled incorrectly. It did happen, but it was rare. I've got a Model 10 that I shoot with entire confidence, but the first time I shot it was not from the shoulder. One can make cases out of belted magnums of the proper length. I use 375 H&H. Though the original 280 Ross had a bit of a rim, the magnum cases work wonderfully.
TYhat's a nice E-10 there, Boltman. I'm jealous.

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#145371 - 04/24/09 05:58 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: John Can.]
Boltman Offline
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Posts: 144
The rifle is a .303. I do have qualms about shooting it, but only because I am a collector and it is in nearly new condition. I'm not a big fan of shooting nearly new 100 year old rifles when lesser specimens can be shot. The Ross M-10/MkIII action is one of the strongest ever made. To compare it to a modern action, with its multiple locking lugs it most closely resembles the Weatherby MKV action. Around 1915, E. Crossman did some destruction type testing on Ross, Mauser and other actions. One method of attempted destruction testing was to fill the Ross case (.280 Ross case - about the same case capacity as the 7mm magnum) with pistol powder. He was meticulous in filling the case, tamping it down to pack more powder in etc. until it was as full as he could get it. He then loaded a bullet and also GREASED the case. He could not get the action to blow (not the case with the other actions he tested). So, it is ironic that there is persisent mythology about the Ross action being weak. With regard to the bolt blowing out, this is specific to the M-10/MkIII action. It was primarily reported in the military service of the MKIII - not any of the previous Ross Sporters or military rifles. It was reported that if you disassembled the bolt and then reassembled it incorrectly, with enough force you could push it forward into the action. As the bolt was reassembled incorrectly, it would not engage the locking lugs. Supposedly, a chambered cartridge could be fired and as the bolt locking lugs were not engaged, the bolt would shoot straight back (into the shooter's face). This is not something I fear at all. I say this because it is very easy to know if your bolt is engaging or not. If you watch closely as you push the bolt fully forward, you can easily see that it is full closing and the locks lugs are turning. By the way, nearly all Ross rifles were made in Quebec, Canada. Some early ones were made in the United States, or at least the receivers were. I can post some pictures of these as well. The intended use of the sporters was big game hunting. The .280 Ross caliber, of Charles Ross' design of course, was intended to shoot point blank to about 600 yards without sight adjustment. I have talked to several hunters who have hunted with .280 Scotch Deerstalkers and they report phenomenal accuracy and performance. As I have stated, this cartridge was way ahead of its time. Here were are, 100+ years later and I can't think of a cartridge of close bore size that is a significant improvement.

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#145384 - 04/24/09 08:59 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
mkbenenson Offline
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My favorite Ross story: Decades ago I was quite a straight pull fan, had all sorts, even a Steyr 95 .30-40 by Sedgley, looked just like a Sedgley Springfield except for the funny action in the middle of it. At one point I had a Ross 1905 .303 factory sporter and shot it a lot, being careful about bolt assembly. Was out at a New Jersey range one weekend and must have put a hundred rounds through it shooting military ammo as fast as I could. Got very hot. Emptied a magazine full and watched in amazement as the bolt head rotated and the bolt slid back part way. Sold that gun not long after !!! Still have a handsome .303 custom by John Dubiel, sold a .35WCF by Ed Weber last year.

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#145386 - 04/24/09 09:33 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
waterman Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 406
Loc: Humboldt County, CA
A few years back, I had a nearly new 1910 Ross in .280, fitted with a Lyman Alaskan. I wonder if it was ever fired, either before or after the scope was fitted. I had laid hands on a box of 160 grain jacketed .288" bullets, but had no luck (or maybe good luck) in finding cartridges. My sons and I disassembled the rifle on a large table. I told my sons about the Ross horror stories. My youngest, with a MS in mechanical engineering but zero interest in rifles, put the bolt together and took it apart a half-dozen times. He said "There are a lot of nice rifles out there, Dad. Please get rid of this one."

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#145387 - 04/24/09 09:40 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
WJW Online   content
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Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 35
Loc: South Eastern B. C.
Have a couple of 1910s, one in .303 British and the other a .280 Ross. Have tried to assemble these incorrectly and on these two you would have to beat the bolt with a heavy hammer to get the bolt in any distance. The same applies to others I have handled. I know of others that have been used extensively that are rebarreled to 7mm Weatherby Magnum, .300 H & H Magnum and .338 Winchester Magnum. There have been no problems in any of these. It is interesting that the same principle used in the Ross mechanism is also used in a number of "modern" self loading and a pump action rifle.

Also have a 1905 - in this rifle the bolt cannot be inserted incorrectly as the extractor will not let the front of the bolt turn to the left when the bolt is removed from the action.

Some early Ross rifles were also manufactured in England by, if memory serves, Lancaster.

Bill

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#145397 - 04/24/09 11:24 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
Boltman Offline
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Mark - your range experience must not have completely turned you away from Ross rifles. In fact, if I recall correctly I think I saw you bid on a Ross on auction within the last month or two ;)? I have never heard of a bolt blowing back out of any Ross other than the M-10/MkIII. The inside of the bolt is engineered like a "Yankee screwdriver" and it is possible that spring broke in your bolt. I was interested to hear of your rapid-fire experience with the rifle.

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#145398 - 04/24/09 11:27 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: waterman]
Boltman Offline
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I should also point out that Ross later put a rivet through the bolt sleeve and into the bolt and this prevented the whole disassembly occurrence.

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#145399 - 04/24/09 11:37 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: WJW]
Boltman Offline
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Originally Posted By: WJW
Have a couple of 1910s, one in .303 British and the other a .280 Ross. Have tried to assemble these incorrectly and on these two you would have to beat the bolt with a heavy hammer to get the bolt in any distance. The same applies to others I have handled.

Some early Ross rifles were also manufactured in England by, if memory serves, Lancaster.

Bill


Bill - you correctly point out that it is not easy to get a Ross to accept an incorrectly assembled bolt. This is one of the reasons the reports of mishaps have been controversial. Ross himself thought it was appropriate Darwinism and his comments on the matter were often not compassionate toward the victims of a bolt mishap.

As far as some of the early Ross rifles being manufactured in England, that is also subject to debate. There are sporters with Ross's name on them that came out several years before he put out his first catalog. The Lancaster marked Ross sporters are a good example and I will post pictures of one soon. Mine is marked Ross and it was made in Hartford Connecticut - as marked on the receiver. The barrel is marked Lancaster and there are British proofs on the barrel. I think the best explanation is that Ross sold the actions to Lancaster and I believe they made up the rifles to their specifications. I also have a Scotch Deerstalker done up by Westley Richards. I seriously doubt Westley Richards ordered a complete rifle from Ross and threw the barrel and stock away. Rather, I am confident Ross sold the action (or the barreled action) and they made up the rest of the rifle. More to come.

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#145403 - 04/25/09 12:30 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
mkbenenson Offline
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Boltman, you may have seen my for sale ad on auctionarms.com for a .35WCF 1905 stocked by Ed Weber. Last year. Useless to me as it had about a 15" pull, Iam 5'8" and to cut the stock would have left the butt too small on a hard kicker. 28". Bore was only VG+ I suffer from "perfect bore syndrome", I speculated about reboring to .405 but that would have made things worse. Got a note from the buyer that he was having good luck shooting it. Probably could still locate him in the computer if anyone wants to pursue the rifle.
I have the American Rifleman back to its beginning in 1923, the military were selling rifles to NRA members, and there was a good deal about them in the magazine. There is no doubt that bolts came out and injured several and maybe even killed one or two people. Unclear which model, clear that incorrect assembly was responsible for some incidents but there was a residue which left many folk wondering if even correctly assembled a bolt might come out.

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#145405 - 04/25/09 12:35 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
Michael Petrov Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
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At one time I had a very nice M-1910 sporter in .280 Ross, it was a well made rifle of both workmanship and materials. I experimented with removing and taking the bolt apart in a attempt to put it together wrong. What I found out and no one who writes about these says is "All you have to do if you have the bolt out is when you replace it in the rifle LOOK DOWN and you can clearly see the bolt rotate into battery. If you did it wrong it will not rotate.
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#145427 - 04/25/09 10:56 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
Boltman Offline
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Posts: 144
Mark - was that an originally chambered .35 WCF M1905? I realize it had been restocked but were it an original chambering, I'd have been interested. I'm surprised I missed it. There's a few of us who follow any Ross rifles that come up for sale and generally let each other know when we spot one. I don't recall any mention of this one, but we don't have a perfect radar detection system. As far as the residue left beyond the bolts blowing out, you're right, it is there and really permeates to all models of Ross rifle. I try to remind people that the bolt heads on the sporters other than the M10/MkIII sporters cannot be turned the wrong way.

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#145428 - 04/25/09 11:08 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Michael Petrov]
Boltman Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 144
Originally Posted By: Michael Petrov
At one time I had a very nice M-1910 sporter in .280 Ross, it was a well made rifle of both workmanship and materials. I experimented with removing and taking the bolt apart in a attempt to put it together wrong. What I found out and no one who writes about these says is "All you have to do if you have the bolt out is when you replace it in the rifle LOOK DOWN and you can clearly see the bolt rotate into battery. If you did it wrong it will not rotate.


Mike - yes, this is an important point that should help assuage people's apprehensions a lot. I mentioned it earlier: "...watch closely as you push the bolt fully forward, you can easily see that it is full closing and the lock lugs are turning..." Also, in his excellent 2002 Gun Digest article, "The Model 1910 Ross: The Best Rifle in the World" Jim Foral describes the same observation. So yes, simply "LOOK DOWN" and watch the bolt close. There is no need for guess work or to wonder.

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#145431 - 04/25/09 11:53 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
Michael Petrov Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
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Loc: Alaska
Jim Foral?? Seems i've heard that name somewhere. With all the cartoon names he could be posting on this thread ;-).
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#145433 - 04/25/09 11:56 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Michael Petrov]
Boltman Offline
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Posts: 144
Originally Posted By: Michael Petrov
Jim Foral?? Seems i've heard that name somewhere. With all the cartoon names he could be posting on this thread ;-).


Absolutely, he is often closer than one would think

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#145436 - 04/25/09 12:59 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
Krag 1902 Offline
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Registered: 11/08/08
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He is nearby, even as we speak. Often the lurker, less than likely to post. His mother told him not to speak unless spoken to. Good advice.

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#145444 - 04/25/09 03:29 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Krag 1902]
Michael Petrov Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
I suppose there is a reason for all the cartoon names(Nom De Net).

I've sort of given up on trying to remember them all. Word on the street is the next "Amber Prize" is going to "Krag 1902".
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#145448 - 04/25/09 03:55 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Michael Petrov]
Boltman Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 144
Seems to me, a certain someone is starting to hog those Amber Prizes

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#145452 - 04/25/09 04:36 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Michael Petrov]
Krag 1902 Offline
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Posts: 83
Keep our fingers crossed for him; I know he is one of my favorites.

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#145454 - 04/25/09 04:40 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Krag 1902]
Michael Petrov Offline
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Originally Posted By: Krag 1902
Keep our fingers crossed for him; I know he is one of my favorites.


Mine too!

We could call one "Jim of Lincoln" and the other "Jim of Paxton".
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#145475 - 04/25/09 08:30 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Michael Petrov]
mkbenenson Offline
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Mike, who is going to watch the bolt head turn when pumping the action for a second shot at a moving animal? Boltman, rifle was an origina .35WCF, found it at a Denver show on Weber's table, maybe five six years ago, said he was bored one winter had the rifle with damaged stock and a good walnut plank so went ahead and restocked it.

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#145481 - 04/25/09 09:46 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
Boltman Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 144
Interesting Mark. That probably means he still had the original stock too. If he was a packrat like me he would. As far as firing multiple shots, once you have established that the bolt is correctly assembled and fully travels into the front receiver ring and engages the locking lugs, it won't revert to having like a wrongly assembled bolt.

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#145498 - 04/25/09 11:23 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
Nero Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 164
Loc: NZ
I have never seen a Ross Rifle but have stumbled across a Ross which I have been told is a sporterised military 303 that needs a new barrel and is marked on the action.
Ross Rifle co. Canada M-10 Patented.
It also has an exposed magazine.
Because I had also heard about problems with the bolt I didn't want to know about it until I came across these post's extolling the virtues of the Ross.
I will see if I can get a copy of the 2002 Gun Digest from my local library to look up the review on these rifles and in the meantime can anybody tell me anything about about this rifle from the small amount of information I have given here and would this rifle action convert easily and be ok for the 220 Swift?
Anything in particular to look out for.
Regards.



Edited by Nero (04/26/09 04:41 AM)

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#145576 - 04/26/09 10:49 PM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Nero]
Boltman Offline
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Nero - I am mainly a collector so I have been hoping someone else would jump in to answer your question. All of my Ross rifles are in their original chamberings. Over the years I have seen many Ross rifles made up in different standard and wildcat calibers. The .280 Ross cartridge is quite a potent number and holds a lot of powder. I mentioned the E. Crossman testing where he couldn't blow an M-10 action filling the entire .280 case with pistol powder (and greasing the case). The Ross action had the reputation as being one of the strongest out there. The one fly in the ointment, the mis-assembled bolt scenario would be no greater worry with a rifle chambered in .220 Swift vs. .303 British or .280 Ross. If somehow that happened, whatever the cartridge, the bolt would blow back into the shooter's face if the locking lugs failed to engage with the receiver. My best advice is to work with a knowledgeable gunsmith. There is the theoretical side of what you are proposing as well as the specific rifle you would be using. Both require proper evaluation.

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#145586 - 04/27/09 03:18 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
Nero Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 164
Loc: NZ
Hi Boltman thanks for your reply,
since I wrote this post ar the weekend I have had a word with the gunsmith who has worked on a few projects for me over the last few years but he has never worked on a Ross before.
He reckons on finding another 220 Swift action if I must have a custom built 220 Swift.
I thought that with the Swift case being pretty close to the 303 at the rear end it might be a practical thing to do with this chopped around Ross Rifle.
Regards.

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#238888 - 08/14/11 01:54 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: mkbenenson]
Old Glass Offline
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Registered: 03/05/10
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By: mkbenenson
My favorite Ross story: Decades ago I was quite a straight pull fan, had all sorts, even a Steyr 95 .30-40 by Sedgley, looked just like a Sedgley Springfield except for the funny action in the middle of it. At one point I had a Ross 1905 .303 factory sporter and shot it a lot, being careful about bolt assembly. Was out at a New Jersey range one weekend and must have put a hundred rounds through it shooting military ammo as fast as I could. Got very hot. Emptied a magazine full and watched in amazement as the bolt head rotated and the bolt slid back part way. Sold that gun not long after !!! Still have a handsome .303 custom by John Dubiel, sold a .35WCF by Ed Weber last year.


I remember reading that somewhere a few years back and saving it on my computer.

Can you tell us more about this? At what point in the firing cycle did this occur? During the recoil or after? I assume the case came back out of the chamber as well?

Originally Posted By: mkbenenson
....I have the American Rifleman back to its beginning in 1923, the military were selling rifles to NRA members, and there was a good deal about them in the magazine. There is no doubt that bolts came out and injured several and maybe even killed one or two people. Unclear which model, clear that incorrect assembly was responsible for some incidents but there was a residue which left many folk wondering if even correctly assembled a bolt might come out.


That was also the conclusion of the authors of the Ross Rifle Story if I read it correctly.

There is a photo in that book of a number of 1905 bolt sleeves with blown out bolt stop lugs. I have one exactly the same myself that came out of a gunsmith's parts box. Unfortunately someone has messed around with the area of the fracture a bit, but it is clearly a fracture. The bolt stop lug and the portion of the sleeve it attached to are gone completely.


Edited by Old Glass (08/18/11 03:00 AM)

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#239345 - 08/16/11 09:20 AM Re: Here is a Ross E-10 Sporter [Re: Boltman]
Alvin Linden Offline
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Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 621
Hey Guys: I don't know if it is still there [hope it is for your sake![ but there is a Ross .303 British[Caliber] Sporterized [I assume originally military ...Checkering] on Guns International site FOR SALE BY WILDWOOD GUNS INC. of Maine inventory P-79 for $450. Sounds fairly nice for the money ...pictures are there. Good Luck!!! Jerry

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