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PeteM has posted TWO photos of cracked Fox guns IN THIS POST. There is also a Rev post of carnage to a Becker magnum on the same page.

Pay attention!

"All lies and jest, still a man hears, what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest,"
Simon and Garfunkel, "The Boxer", 1969-or, today, it would seem.

Best,
Ted

Get into the groove, boy
you've got to prove your love to me

Madonna, 1988

Hi Ted,

All of those images have been posted here over the years. I am glad CC sent a picture of the Flues. It will go into my collection.

All this talk of Fox... I own several, including a Philadelphia Arms Fox. I would have purchased a Balitmore Fox recently, but decided to spend the money on a stock for a Fox in need... People seem to forget that Fox covers 40 years of production. Fox did produce a gun designed for 3" shells.
http://foxcollectors.com/sw%20waterfowl%20grade.htm

Pete

Only Parkers can command the cash they do at the checkout counter.
Hard to argue with the deep pockets set!

Best song Simon and Garfunkel ever wrote and performed. Rumor has it that "The Boxer" was possibly Bob Dylan, an iconoclastic figure in the music world. I owned a Fox HE 12- 32" barrels 3" chambers with the oft-misread "Barrels Not Guaranteed" stamping on the flat(s) BUT I never shot 3 inch shells in it. It has been replaced by an older L.C. Smith 2E 12- also 32" Nitro barrels with original factory ventilated rib, and although NOT a longrange model (I have one 'in the wings'" however) it has 3" chambers- originally a 30" Chain Damascus gun built about 1898, sent to Fulton and refitted with the Nitro barrels. I also have two other pre-1913 12 gauge Smiths- a Grade 2 mfg. 1907 and a 3E 12 ga. mfg. 1909. NONE of these older "Elsies" have any cracks in the stock heads, at either lock plate area, or the tangs, and they have been shot a fair amount- But in looking over area shotguns for sale, I see later Smiths with that problem. Why? possibly over-oiling and storing the gun muzzles up-allowing the oil to weaken the pores of the wood at the stock head. Also, as Mike McIntosh mentions in his 1989 "Best Guns" book- early Smiths had finer engraving for grade and filing and shaping of the lockplates- possibly a slight beveled mortise that was eliminated to cut labor costs- I strip and clean the Smiths-removing the lock plates to clean and lube same (light Rem-Oil) and I use a Q-tip and apply a very light coat of Tru-Oil to the inletted wood areas, then re-assemble. I use 2.75" Classic Doubles Non-Toxic shells in the Smiths for waterfowling, I also have two older Model 12 Heavy Duck pumpguns and a "POS" if I can borrow from Destry's term here- Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag- and all I shoot in those cannons is 2.75" steel shot (usually Kent or Federal)- BUT I only shoot greenheads and Canadas on private farms or rivers in my area, not on Federal reserves or Public areas- and I take my birds in close-how close- I like to count the eyelets in their boots before I shoot- and my shotshell budget goes further by sticking with the std. loads. I have never heard of a AH Fox, whether a Sterlingworth or a Burt Becker "Bo Whoop" with a cracked frame or the rib extension damaged (as per the fotos)-my HE was breeched so tightly that once fired 12 AA reloads- I could not close the breech- the lever would stick to the right of the tang- only with factory new shells would that Cannon close properly-I like Smiths because in my area they are affordable, but if I had access to Bernie Madoff's Swiss bank accounts, I would 10 times rather have a High Graded 12 gauge ejector Fox made before 1916 with Krupp barrels than any other American boxlock of that same era. But name association and what the market will bear prevails- the Parker "mystique" exists, always has, always will- go to a music store in any major city and price a used Steinway Grand against a Baldwin or a Yamaha- all have 55 white keys, 33 black and three pedals and a black top you prop open- but the name Steinway says it all- ditto Parker--

Quote:
"I would 10 times rather have a High Graded 12 gauge ejector Fox made before 1916 with Krupp barrels than any other American boxlock of that same era."

Hey RWTF:
I have a Fox AE 12 ga with 30" barrels that was made in 1908. I expect you'd prefer a higher grade but this ones internals are the same as the fancier models and it has never broken down on me either.
BTW: I suspect those cracked frames shown earlier were the result of bad heat treatment. It would be interesting to have the serial numbers to see if they fit into a pattern.
Jim

Or, guys using the torch method to spruce up those faded case colors. There was a time when that was TAUGHT at gunsmithing schools in the US.

It isn't, anymore.
Best,
Ted

My "go to" or "el numero uno" has been a CE 16 gauge A H Fox with 28 inch barrels. I had it re-stocked with a treble-grip, the wood is very nice and has a redish tint and it balances like an English make. It's smoke'n hot.

tim

Sounds like a fine gun Jim. Here's a strange one-Fox wise- a hunting/shooting pal for many years, now a retired Probate Judge, bought from an estate a Fox 12 BE with Krupp barrels-DT,AE fine gun- a tad heavy, but here's the strange thing-at least to me- the barrels measure an even 29.50"- dead nuts-not 30"- no sign of them ever being cut- no "tell-tale" hacksaw teeth marks in the solder, or ribs- and it checks out IMP. Mod. right and Full left with my choke gauge and my chamber depth gauge reads 2.880"- and it patterns tightly, shoots to POA on pattern sheets with about 60-65% of the known pellet count above the barrels (when fired like a rifle at a center aiming point) and will pattern evenly with both 1.125 oz and 1.250 oz. loads of lead: 4-5-6 and with 7.5 Champion paper Trap loads, patterns almost as tightly as the big 12 HE I once owned, shot with the same exact load-Yet my former HE was made aprox. 1926-27 and had Chromox Steel barrels, not Krupp--The only minor flaw I have ever read about the Fox guns was the very minor point about not having rebounding hammers- no big deal.. By the way- a Probate Judge or a lawyer specializing in probate and estate settlements is the best source for buying good guns privately-IMO

Regarding "Heat Treatment" while slightly off topic, but I think relevent Julian Hatcher discuss heat treatment of the "Low number" 03 Springfield receivers in his "Notebook". Seems even the prestigious Springfield Armory at the time was still relying on "Color" observed by eye for the proper temperature. Litle problem was encountered as long as "Experienced Personal" were doing the work, but increased production for wwarfare resulted in less experienced people having to be utilized. Problems began to surface.
No doubt many of the double makers of this era also relied on temperature Color for proper treatment with a resultant occasional error. I do not think these few cracked frames should necessarily be considered "Typical" for a Fox gun. It is also noted I say this, "No"t as a prejudised FF (Fox Fan) as Lefever is my favorite of the American Classics.