doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com info E. Wundhamer Austrian rifle(pics)RARE??

it is a dbl. barreled, percussion shell fired 16 guage shotgun. with a little choke on the left barrel. The rifle/shotgun was made by E. Wundhamer, In Ried. I believe "in ried" is the town in Austria where it was made.
I HAVE SEARCHED THE LAST 6 YEARS OF "DOUBLEGUN ON LINE AUCTION SUMMARIES, WHICH INCLUDES THOUSANDS OF AUCTIONS AND HAVE NOT SEEN AN E. WUNDHAMER SHOTGUN EVEN ONCE.
IS THIS THE RAREST GUN IN THE WORLD OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING? I'M NOT VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT GUNS SO ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!
if anybody has any info on the manufacturer and possible year of manufacture i would appreciate it! Thank you, Perry [img]

Perry:

When you say percussion, do you mean rim-fire like a 9mm Flobert? Could "EB" in an oval be the Belgian mark which has a "ELG"? 16mm(16.2 & 16.6mm) would be 16 bore which is typical of European. It's hard to say without pics. For now I'll guess Wundhamer to be a firearms merchant. I think I recall Reid of Austria be near a DP(Displaced Persons) camp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I really don't know! The note says percussion shell fired. As far as the initials EB in circle, it clearly says EB not elb. The manufacturer name of E.Wundhamer is in gold leaf on one barrel and the other barrel says In Reid, in gold as well. Thanks for your input, as i truly appreciate any info i can get! I will take pic's tomorrow and post them to follow up. Once again Thank You!

Perry:

What type lockup mechanism does it have? It does breech/drop down doesn't it? Pics of the barrel flats/underside of the tubes reveals the most info. I'm guessing it is an external hammergun? If it is "EB", the tubes could have been sourced from one of the Barthelmes boys in Zella St. Blasii.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Close.... EB was a trade mark used by 2 Belgian makers. I can not supply the year 1 had it and the other took it over. The two makers:
Lambert & Theophile Britte
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20b/a%20britte%20gb.htm

Charles Braekers & Co.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...%20cie%20gb.htm

It was not uncommon for a trademark to pass from one firm to another. That is why dating the gun in some other manner is important.

For Belgian proof and trade marks:
http://damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

Pete

Thanks to all! It is a breach and drops down. It has the double external hammers. I will post pics tomorrow to help everyone. Sorry I don't have much knowledge about specifics.

has anyone ever heard of E. Wundhamer? I have never been able to find anything about manufacturer.

Here is some more about Britte:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6342&page=1#Post6342

Pete

Thanks Pete! I now have some pic's but can't seem to get them inserted into message!!

http://www2.snapfish.com/share/p=578261238132611564/l=447252247/g=163813613/otsc=SYE/otsi=SAIS [/img]

i hope this works! i'm trying to post my pictures and am having trouble.

Wundhamer is an uncommon name, gunsmith or not. Ried (NOT Reid!) is name of several smaller places in Austria and Germany (also Switzerland, Netherlands). The only reference I could find connecting name Wundhamer to place Ried gives Ried im Innkreis, a small town in Upper Austria, near the German/Bavarian border.
I could find references to two guns by "Wundhamer in Ried" in Europe (both in Austria/Germany). Both hammer shotguns, one pinfire, one (early) centerfire. The later was reportedly marked ED Wundhamer, probably Eduard. BTW, the pinfire double was recently offered for sale in Wels, an Austrian town not far from Ried im Innkreis.
So for the time being I see it like this:
Eduard Wundhamer, Ried im Innkreis (Austria), active circa 1870-1900. He was probably more of a local gunsmith/retailer rather than a "proper" gunmaker.
With kind regards,
Jani

Montenegrin,
I'd like to tell you, on behalf of our extended "family" here, how truly blessed we are to have a fount of information, such as you, in our midst!

Perry G,

No problem. 2 choices, here is the FAQ for posting images here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6339&page=1#Post6339

Or you can send them to me and I will post for you.

Jani,

Nice research!

Pete

I found this. Need some one to translate.
http://beretta.at/site/product/CB_Product_ShowAll.php?frame=framecontent&group_id=3

Hersteller auf der Laufschiene in Silber eingelegt, geschwungener Abzugbügel mit geschnörkeltem Hornfortsatz.

Guter Allgemeinzustand, für Dekozweke geeignet



Pete

Pete,
This is the gun I was refering to above as a pinfire Wundhamer double, offered recently in Wels (by Wertgarner gunshop).
The only significant part to be translated is: Maker is inlaid in silver on the barrel rib.
With kind regards,
Jani

Montnegrin, I want to thank you for your input! I have sent pics and hopefully they will be posted soon. This should be helpfull to everyone who is trying to help ! Once again, Thank you for your help, and thanks to everyone else that has contributed. A true bunch of "Good People"

Warm Regards,

Perry

Perry G,

Here are your pictures. In the 4th picture there is a Belgian proof on the barrel with 16.2.





















Pete

Perry G,

I do not see an EB anywhere. Did I miss something?

That proof mark is an EL. It is a provisional proof that has been in use since 1852.

Pete

Pete, Thank You Very Much!!! I truly appreciate your help. One thing i've noticed, everybody on this site seems to be "Good People" As far as the EB it is on the underside of the barrels and didn't show up very well. It is clearly an EB in the circle. I wish I knew more about guns but I don't. I don't even know if it's a shotgun or rifle. What guage/mm it is.From what i can tell by everyones posts, is that it dates back to around the mid 1800's. Any idea on the value, or anything else you can tell me.
Thanks again Pete,

Sincerely,

Perry

Where is the "EB" in relation to the "16.2" or "16.6" mm mark? The bore is 16 gauge seeing 16.6mm converts to 0.654" which is within the 16 gauge range. It has the Rigby style forend release, which is seen on some Viennesse makers like Franz Neuber. The mark of the "Crown" over inverted "crossed scepters" may be a maker's mark and there is another letter, say "P" on the right side. Just a guess, but I think it scepters are inverted to make it differ from the Birmingham Proofhouse mark? Using the town stamped on the tubes and locks along with the Rigby style forend release, it looks to be a Austrian longarm with Belgian sourced tubes probably from the 1880s seeing the Austro-Hungarian Empire adopted/passed rules of proof on June 23rd, 1891. It is devoid of those marks so it was made prior to 1891. Does it have rebounding hammers? They appear to rest on the strikers. Any marks on the standing breech or watertable/top of the receiver where the barrels mate?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

BTW: Nice Bernard pattern on those barrels http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_108gj6wxpcf

Thanks ellen for reply! The EB is on the right barrel close to the center where both barrels come together. The location is between the to (release mounts?) about 2" away from the 166 marking, about two and a half to three inches from the butt end of the barrels.The hammers do not rebound after fired, they rest on the strikers. There doesn't appear to be any other markings where the receivers and barrels meet other than the gold ornamental markings that you can see in the pictures.
Do you have any idea what the (No. 318) signifies on the end of the trigger guard? Any idea on a ball park figure as far as the value? Like i've said earlier, I know Very Little about firearms and may be interested in selling it in the future.
Thanks again,
Perry

perry g,

Those barrels were very expensive. They don't show up well in the photos, but they are Bernard damascus. I had to reduce them so Photobucket would accept the file size. Top of the line available in Belgium.

This is a price list from Ferdinand Drissen, 1898.


Bernard damascus


I believe Raimey is correct. The barrel tubes were sources in Belgium and the gun was made in Austria.

Pete

Thanks again Pete! good info to know. Can you tell what grade, #1, or #2
Perry

I think "No. 318" is E.D.'s serial number sequence. There also appears to be a number on the lower rib just ahead of the forend lug and I now think I see where the "EB" mark could be between the forend lug and the "16.6" mark. I think the engraving is executed very nicely. In its day, late 1870s to 1880s, it had all the elements of a quality longarm BUT without some tube thickness measurements as well as how loose or tight the lockup is will greatly affect the price to be realized. I'd want to remove the locks and see if the stock is broken or cracked. And length of pull needs to be considered. What type cheekpiece does it have? But when it is closely examined, in my mind it conjures up examples by other Viennese makers like Matthias Nowotny, Johann Springer, Franz Neuber, etc. Regarding price to be realized: I'd get some parameter numbers together on the longarm, and then attempt to locate some comps at shows or on the net.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The lock up is extremely tight! that is one of the first things i noticed. Barrels are smooth inside, and the thickness seems to be close to original.Stock is in good shape with no cracks or stress marks. The checkering is 21+ points. The esternal condition of the barrel is somewhat worn, but there is not dents. The cheek piece is close to a monte carlo stock and raised.
Much Aprreciated!!

Perry

Hi Perry...looks nice.
You mention its nice n tight...It seems I can see a consistent gap between the barrels & standing breechthat goes around the Doll Head rib extension...like the barrels need pushing back a few thou'.
Or is it just a trick of the light??
That's not the end of the world of course, but should be fixed if this is indeed the case
Nice one
Franc

I see what you mean. I never noticed that until you mentioned it. Like i've said earlier, I don't know much about guns. Is that much of a problem? The reason I say it's nice and tight is because there is no movement at all. I can't even force any play in it when i try. What would be involved in getting it fixed?
Thanks for the heads up!

Sincerely,

Perry

I have had very little info on manufacturer of this sxs shotgun. Does this mean that it is very rare? Was E. Wundhamer an actual gun manufacturer, or a gun smith. If E. Wundhamer was the gunsmith, then who was the manufacturer? I may have to sell it at some point because i just lost my job of 6 years. I hope i don't have to sell it, but if i do, what would be a good way to sell it and get a fair price? Anybody have any idea about a ballpark value?

Sincerely,

Perry

Anyone confirm or deny that the "Crown" over inverted "Crossed Scepters" is the mark of the Austro-Hungarian BundesHeer proofhouse? I've seen several military arms with the "Eagle BH" mark that had a crossed scepters stamp but the image quality was poor.

Regarding the maker, as I posted before, I think he was somewhat of a firearms merchant more so than a gunsmith. Many gunsmiths as the progressed in age made the transition from gunsmith to firearms merchant. He could have sourced much of the work out or received the longarm "in the white" and finished it or sourced the longarm with his name roll stamped on the rib. Rare? I don't know if I would state that and he may have only made, or had made, 320 longarms for instance. I think uncommon would be more in line.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey!

I want to thank eveyone, especially Pete, Raimey, and everyone else who has given me insight into this piece.

I am learning a greater appreciation for what I have. I had a friend who is a collector, examine my piece and he was enamored with it! He couldn't believe how flawless the engraving was. He kept asking how I came across such a wonderful shotgun!

The more I learn from this site, and my friend Doran, the more I want to learn about this exceptional shotgun.

So far I have learned that the barrels are the "Top of the Line" Bernard Damascus, The engraving is flawless, and the Gold inlay is beautiful. It appears to me that "Whoever" made this piece doesn't matter. They spared no expense in crafting such a wonderful piece.

I am now learning that the value of what I have, is only measured by how much I enjoy having it! I have decided to just hang on to it and find out as much as I can about it.

Thanks again to all who've helped me! I would appreciate any other info that anyone would have.

Much Appreciated,

Perry

Hello all,
It seems to me that our Eduard Wundhamer was brother of Ludwig Wundhammer, a well known US custom gunmaker of early 20th century. For particulars please see "Ludwig Wundhammer (Michael Petrov?)" on this forum. Thanks again, Michael.
With kind regards,
Jani

Excellent contribution and information on all fronts. But let me preface the following by saying that for now I don't have any additonal info on Eduard Wundhamer.

The engraving is very similar to what one would see on a Franz Neuber of Wiener Neustadt(location of an armoury) or Peterlongo, and possibly Josef Kugler, of Innsbruck in the Tirol/Tyrol( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Tyrol ) region circa 1900. Also I’m curious if your locks have an extension at the butt end of the lock, which appears to be for stability. It’s usually apparent by a slot, which is a circular cut near the end of the lock and is disguised by engraving. Many examples are O/U versions for combos or double rifles(probably easier to regulate) and at least the tubes were soured from Suhl. But yours is earlier with higher end pattern welded tubes that were sourced from Belgium instead of fluid steel usually by Krupp. If Richard Mahrholdt was active in the late 1800s, he could have been the Suhl connection for Peterlong as a Mahrholdt was a member of Suhler Waffengesellschaft(Suhl Weapons Company) Wittwer, Schemmer & Mahrholdt in the 1920s and early 1930s. The circumstances of the depression may have forced the firm to close. Also in the early to mid 1920s Richard Mahrholdt published a catalogue in the name of Waffen Manufaktur Richard Mahrholdt. And Mahrholdt held a stake in Peterlongo from circa 1900 until the late 1930s when the name was changed to Richard Mahrholdt & Sohn. But the connection really dates back further in that Stutzen, target arms, etc. made in Suhl usually had either the Tirolerschaft(Tyrolese stock) or Wienerschaft(Viennese stock). So there appears to be some influence in both directions. But Peterlongo’s early longarms were very distinctive in that the hammer was often reversed on the lock and a snail was constructed/attached to prevent the hot residue from getting in the eye of the shooter. Regarding hammerguns, some sources give that an Austrian poachers gun had an odd underside hammer which prevented the ignition spark from being seen as well as ornate decoration on the longarms. The poachers could have been of the farming class, who were subject to arms restrictions, which were difficult to enforce in remote regions of Austria. Getting off on a longer tangent, the Austrians/Germans were an interesting lot in that in the 16th century citizens were required by law to attend a shooting function 4 times a year in Lindau for example( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindau ) or pay a fine . This was an attempt not to build a militia but to have citizens who could shoot in the event of a crisis. In September of 1912, a law was enforced/passed by the k.k/k.u.k.( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.u.k. ) which forced all “antiquated weapons” to be turned in and were to be inspected by curators/officials, by whom a catalogue was supposed to have been made. Then the previously confiscated weapons and the currently submitted “antiquated weapons” were to be put in collections or sent on to arsenals(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_(Vienna) ) and museums for display. I haven’t seen the definition of “antiquated weapon” just yet. But the upshot of the above verbiage is that Austria has deep roots in gunmaking and your task is to find a similar Austrian side by side from the same time period which will give you something with which to compare. Keep looking as you will find one.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse