March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
4 members (NZHunter, L. Brown, LGF, SKB), 230 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,373
Posts543,976
Members14,389
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#139311 03/07/09 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
pwm Offline OP
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
gentleman, I come across an american 12 bore shotgun! it is an very unusual bird in my part of the world and I have absolutly no information about it. who make it(yes I can read the inscription) when and where? has it a value or is it just another double gun.
thank you for your comments














pwm #139315 03/07/09 09:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 638
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 638
pwm,

It looks like a L.C. Smith No. 3 (grade) American side lock. Yes, it has value especially to the collectors found at LCSmith.org

Elsie's are great guns! Enjoy shooting it!


USMC Retired
pwm #139316 03/07/09 09:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Very nice. You have a L.C. Smith Quality No. 3 made by Hunter Arms Co., Fulton New York in 1895. I believe there is a faint damascus pattern visible underneath the blueing. Nitro-3 Fluid Steel was first available on No. 3 guns in 1895 however. The top lever has been blued, and was originally case colored, as were the receiver and lockplates.
Beavertail forends were not offered until 1920, so the gun may have been restocked at some point (and I believe it was based on the wood to metal fit of the lockplate.) If you'll look underneath the trigger guard, an original stock would have the serial number stamped into the wood.
You can learn alot more on the L.C. Smith Collectors Association site http://www.lcsmith.org/
Check 'Shotguns', 'FAQ', and 'Photo Trail' on the Home Page.
Please review the 'Disassembly and Reassembly' FAQ and be sure that the hammers are cocked before reattaching the forend.
BTW: unless special ordered, Smith 12g chambers were 2 3/4" from the beginning of production
Any idea how this treasure made it to Germany?

Last edited by revdocdrew; 03/07/09 09:41 PM.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,961
Likes: 9
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,961
Likes: 9
It is a pre 1913 #3 gun and appears to have a Lairds patent single trigger. A great trigger until it goes out of adjustment then a real bear. Use light loads because Smiths were known to split stocks.
bill

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
pwm Offline OP
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
thank you, I will move to the forum

pwm #139448 03/09/09 07:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,089
Likes: 191
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,089
Likes: 191
In its refinished and restocked condition, it is not of interest to collectors in the U.S., and probably of less interest in Germany.

pwm #139451 03/09/09 08:22 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Great fotos Sir, thanks for sharing. Nice to see gun safety practiced where you live, in the fourth foto frame, the pistol (a 1911 or a clone perhaps) shown next to the writing materials has the slide back in 'open battery', good gun manners indeed. An open gun is a safer gun, however, there is no such thing in my book as a safe gun, that is a responsibility of the owner or those who handle same.

Your Smith, I believe, is a non-ejector Grade 3 12 bore-looks like from the two milled recesses in the water table flats it takes the protruding pins from the early style extractor design- complicated machining, but a smooth functioning design. I prefer pre-1913 Smiths with double triggers, ejectors or extractors, no strong preference there, as I reload AA 12 gauge loads- I have a 12 Grade 2E serial no. 1074 and with the same patent dates on the left side water table flat as your gun, just the serial number on the right flat, an ejector gun so no milled pin recesses. I guess it originally had Damascus barrels, was sent back to Fulton in the late 1920's apparently and a new set of Nitro steel 32" barrels was fitted to same.

Can you detail the barrel markings as I have done on my older Grade 2E and list them here please? So much to learn about older quality doubles, thank you in advance for sharing with us. RWTF


Last edited by Run With The Fox; 03/10/09 07:07 PM.

"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
pwm Offline OP
Sidelock
OP Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
thank you all, RWTF you have very good eyes, its a norinco clone

this gun is part of deal and I dont know if keep it or leave it.
nobody here know anything about it but when I read l.c.smith on the lookplate's something ringing in my ears like doomsday.
of course it have no value on the german market. problem is that the single trigger have some problems which seems to be very common for this design.
I hear different oppinions, some say its restocked and refinish. another voice says the beavertail forend was available in 1920. I understand now that this means it is a orignal forend!this story make sense when another member here say the steel barrel was maybe fitted to the gun in the 1920's.
is it possible that the gun was reworked in fulton in the 20.century? when it was shoot as a pigeon gun it make sense that after 25-30 years a complete rework in Fulton was on the list. question is for me if it make sense to keep this gun and restore it. money put into this project makes only sense if the gun is to sell on the american market later again.
whats is with the original colour case on the action, polished in fulton or bubba work. good idea to make the colour case hardening again?
I have the gun again in my hand in 2 weeks.

Last edited by pwm; 03/09/09 10:23 AM.
pwm #139473 03/09/09 12:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
pmw, Are the barrels serial numbered to the gun? There were two type of barrels offered then, Good Damascus and Nitro Steel for your grade gun in that year.
If the stock is original, there should be a serial number under the trigger guard in the inletted wood, as stated before.
It looks like a Pachmyer recoil pad and I believe that no recoil pads were offered in 1895, and the White Line Pachmyer is from the late 1940's I believe.
The forend is not correct. It would be a splinter typw with a piece of ebony at the tip and with a black plastic round disc of a dogs head imbedded into the forend.
The Hunter One-Trigger can be a nightmare, try backing out the one screw holding the side locks on by a half turn. If that doesn't work and you still have a problem, take the trigger guard wood screws taken out, lift the trigger guard out of the inletted wood and rotate the trigger guard counter-clockwise to reveal another screw going up to the top tang right behind the safety. Loosen this screw by half-a-turn also and try again.

By the way the Hunter One Trigger was not available until 1904 in catalogs but was put on a few guns in 1901.
The stock would have to be modified to accept the Hunter One Trigger, making it more prone to cracking with the wrong loads.

Unless guns of this age were keep in a closet out of the sun light and not handled, very few have the case-colors left. They turn that nice satin patina like yours. To have it re-cased colored means that the side plates would have to be re-annealed to make them soft again and then case hardened again. Case colors are the by-product of the case hardening process, and in this country only a few can get the L.C. Smith colors. I would leave it alone.

Good luck with it.


David


pwm #139530 03/09/09 07:30 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
You are most welcome, and thanks for your kind remark on my visual acuity- still 20/20 uncorrected and as I am right handed, also a right dominant eye. Great news for a die-hard shooter like myself. I have no idea how you would sell that fine but not 100% original Smith in Germany, but if you come back to the States and wish to sell it, please advise me. What is the barrel length and barrel steel grade markings? I prefer double triggered pre-1913 Smiths and only 12 gauge. Why? I shoot 12's better than any other gauge, and only reload for 12. Also, Smith always chambered their 12 gauge guns in the std. 2.75",(except the 3" Long Range version that came out in the mid 1920's I believe) whereas some Fox, Parker and other US mfg. 12 gauge guns had shorter chambers back in that era. 16's are OK, but the early Smiths in 16 gauge had 2.5" chambers for quite some time, ditto the 20 gauge.

Also, simple economics- there were way more 12 gauge Smiths made, especially the better finished pre-1913 series, than the 16 and 20 gauges, hence greater possible supply to meet the ever growing demand. I believe I saw a 12 2E or 3E that had been restocked, also with Hunter One Trigger, in recent Action Arms Auction Site. Also, perhaps others advised you of this, but if you let the hammers down on a Smith when you store it, ALWAYS make sure you re-open the gun to recock the hammers before you dis-assemble it for cleaning, etc. RWTF

Last edited by Run With The Fox; 03/11/09 01:47 PM.

"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.059s Queries: 35 (0.037s) Memory: 0.8523 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 09:15:12 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS