doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Barrel Burst

MASTER GUNSMITH ED LANDERS OR OTHER LIKE HIM HAVE DONE ENOUGH TO THIS GUN.

Can not be his work or Mr. Ed has not sold this gun. No tourch case colors are present.

What can you learn from a gun like this? Nothing for a certain fact but a lot if you try. First if the load was at fault you will most likely never know why. Loose base wad, increase powder, cocked wad, live primer in the powder. Was the barrel honed until out of proof and unsafe? Maybe, maybe not, my instant, expert, internet eye measures the wall thickness at .019 and .025 but that is just a quick guess. Has this gun seen lots of use. Yes, but so have many of the other guns that we all use. No concrete absolute answers jump out at you. But we all can learn from this gun if we are smart.

If you are going to spend money to buy and shoot old guns you need to invest in tools to evaluate them and keep them in top shape. Bore micrometers, barrel wall thickness gauges, decent bore lights, powder scales if you reload are all must own items. Learn how to use all of these tools. If you can not, then have your guns evaluated by a gunsmith that has these tools and knows how to use them. Clearly marked proofs are nothing if the gun has been worked on and the barrels screwed up. If you are not willing to do that then buy the guns for antiques and hang them on the wall.

When a set of barrels gets thin give up on them. Yes .025 may be safe to shoot, but not with 2 3/4" factory loads. And not when my hand is on that forend and you are shooting hot loads.

When a gun blows up of fails and no one is hurt you have had your best day hunting for the next ten years. Because if someone had been hurt, hurt badly, it would take about ten years for both of you to get over it. Hard to take you former hunting buddy fishing if he has only one hand. You have to bait all the hooks and take off all the big fish he catches.

Saad,
Thanks for sharing, great pics, It'll certainly be a conversation starter...
Glad no one was hurt

Wow, loads of replies! Thanks to all for input.

Shells were not reloaded. We mostly use our local brand by name of "Shaheen". The other brand used that day was S&B (Czech) Lord No. 4. Both are 67.5 mm.

Though I do not have gauge for this, will measure wall thickness today (by vernier calipers).

@Marrakai
I agree that there may be many such repairs & barrels honed.

Rust visible in some areas is fresh, as it was drizzling that day, gun was wet & dirty and not cleaned when photos taken.


Forgive my ignorance but I didn't get it.

@Thurston
Will post exact load soon, but spent shells cannot be found as that place is about 250 miles away.

@Jerry
It may look so in the photos but there is no pitting & rust in barrels. As I already mentioned that gun was not cleaned and some surface rust due to rain.

@Geno
I used this gun once or twice after purchase and thanks God, it did not blow up, although many shots fired. Could you please elaborate, for my education, that how it could be judged that it was honed in wrong way?

Almost all replies indicate that there was an obstruction. Now my questions is that what chances a modern, in-proof, un-honed, un-repaired and well kept gun has against a blow like that, in comparison to a near junker.

@John Mann
My mention of "fluid" steel was not in any case an argument that it is strong or weak. But just to tell the specifications of gun before someone may ask that whether it is damascus or fluid.

@KY Jon
Very well said.

When I see sucha used guns I understand proof law is a very good thing, my friend.
There is special term in Russian and in German: "different-wall-thickness" in one word. Usualy as result of many times re-bluing and honing using hand tools or tools for drilling machine.
Every time you shoot barrel breaths and this weak spot on barrels breaths also. And in one moment steel in this place becomes tired and you get what you got.

I would agree with Geno on his evaluation that there was probably not an obstruction present and rather involved a possible choke or reduced diameter immediately if front of the burst area due to prior honing to remove rust or scale or perhaps even possibly some previous dent or imperfection. It may even be possible to confirm that by measuring the bbl wall thickness in several places. If it is found to vary it would tend to confirm that supposition as causative.

What dram eq. loads were being used when the bbl failed, Saad? Does your friend know or could he tell you? I would almost bet he was shooting what we would call flyer loads [3.25 DE + 1.25oz. shot] or heavier.

I would suggest that you & your friends invest in a good barrel wall tickness micrometer and learn its proper use. There have been some very good threads here on the topic, inclusive of suspending the micrometer to get the best consistent readings and modifications to assist keeping the anvil pressure constant and even some photographs as well.

The gun shown has many indicators of heavy use in its prior life and probably should have been used only with low pressure loads and not modern ammunition at all. That is making the assumtion that it was on face & tight and it is also ignoring the proof mark, on purpose. Your friend is a very lucky person to not have suffered an injury .. as were you, my friend. Older double guns, were built from mild steels and as a rule they should not be subjected to modern maximum pressure ammunition loads. This is an area where the use of pressure tested reloaded ammunition comes into its own as it is quite possible to load ammunition suited [proper pressure range] to the gun's vintage that should be safe to use, if the gun is in good condition and everything checks out.

Looking at those tubes again one thing is for sure, they would never survive modern re-proof.
PS. Original heavy proof on such old and well used gun is meaningless.
PS. Check the Bonehill thread for pic of another "Death Trap".

Saad:

I assume you are in Pakistan.

To what standard is Shaheen Ammunition loaded? Is is CIP, or American SAAMI standard, or does Pakistan Ordnance Factories have their own standard? Is it marked on the box? That might be of interest in figuring out the barrel failure.

As for the humor - the joke about " Ed Landers" is a reference to a well known American so-called gunsmith, whose skills are touted by his cohort in the gun sale business, but who is really a "gun butcher " instead. He uses techniques that give the appearance of a quality repair but which are really cheap hack work, and actually devalue and damage the guns in question.

Regards

GKT

I sure hope we get detailed information about the shells being fired.. I will bet it turns out to be a Cheddite!

TW, please email me about your rifle.

The gun pictured is "Wards Target Gun", sometimes called Rylands patent gun. These guns were made in three grades and were priced at 11, 12, and 13 pounds stirling.This range of guns was in production circa 1916- 1930,s. The target or bulls eye, seen stamped on the action is Wards trade mark.
The burst seen in the pictures was caused by an obstruction in the barrel.A photograph of a similar burst, is to be seen on page 116 ,plateV1,of the Modern Shotgun, VOL,2 by Major, Sir Gerald Burrard.
This classic book, includes many photographs of barrel bursts resulting from a variety of causes.Also covered, is a suggested method for diagnosing th root cause of a barrel burst.