doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Classic Doubles

If we're comparing, then it's probably good to compare ACROSS THE BOARD. The early ICD's I saw were guns with very poor wood to metal fit, considering their price range. I have never seen a single Parker Repro--not one, and I've seen a ton of them, owned about a dozen--with fit issues like those guns had. Agree with the Parker case color evaluation. The SST . . . some people shoot them a lot, never have issues; some do have issues. (That'd be kinda like the fit thing on the ICD's.) I had one that had SST problems, about 4 or 5 others that did not. But then I prefer DT's anyhow, and the DT Repros are great.

You'll look long and hard to find a 20ga Parker Repro selling for $6500. That's upper level 28ga Repro dollars. Bunches of 20's out there for under $5K. Check gunsinternational or various dealers to confirm. A difference of $2,000 might be "the same money" to some people, but not me.

So if we're going to compare, let's compare ACCURATELY: REAL positives and negatives of both, REALISTIC prices, etc.

OK Larry, let's compare:

Engraving: The ICDs were done by top Italian (Creative Arts), American (Adams&Adams, John Pease, Jack Jones, Jeff Spicer, and others) and German (Eva Rausch) engravers. Who knows (or cares) do did the Repros.

Case coloring: The ICDs were done by Turnbull. The Repros were done in Ms. Smith's finger painting class.

Barrel bluing: ICD - Turnbull.

Single triggers: ICD: Miller Single Trigger, originally done by Turnbull with definite "issues" later brought in-house and no issues.
The Repro has single trigger problems that no one can solve.

Stocking: The ICD stock were done by Nick Tooth, Joe Dallas, and Ron Buck (now with Galazan). Nick was at Purdey's. The quality of their work is top notch. If you saw an early prototype, they probably didn't do the work.

Assembly: The ICDs were built by hand on an individual basis by top American and European craftsmen headed by Gunter Pfrommer. I have been to the factory dozens of times, know the men who made these guns, seen their work, and love their guns.
The Repros were a production gun made in the same factory as the Winchester 101 and Model 23....good guns but not custom guns.

Quality issues: We can rehash this until the cows come home. I have seen, handled, and shot dozens of ICDs. I,currently, own five and have put thousands of rounds through each of them. Have you ever owned or even shot one of these guns? Yes, I know you saw one (or more) of the early guns, but have you actually had any experience with the later guns, especially the Krupp/VGM guns?

We all know how much you love the Parker Repro. I spite of the fact that I don't share your opinion, I don't doubt that something can be said for them. If you're going to denigrate the ICD, at least base it on a more thorough evaluation.

I feel confident that there are more Repros out there with trigger problems and bad case coloring than ICDs with fitting issues but that shouldn't be the point. Both guns offer value and that shouldn't be overlooked by either of us.

I to the C to the D
I to the C to the D
I to the C to .........

We kind of got the history of the 471XXX parts, how about the 470XXX Italian parts. Any information on the production of these components?
Regarding Engraving, Case Coloring, Blueing, Stocking, Assembly,
Same craftsmen on both the 470 and 471 series? Thanks.

Bob,

The process evolved. My first contact with Ithaca Classic Doubles was in 1999 when I ordered the first of my guns, a 16 gauge that became a "matched pair" when a ordered a 28 gauge as the second gun.
At that time all guns were made with Italian parts had serial numbers beginning with #470xxx. There are others who know far more about the early production than I do and I rather that they comment on this. The parts for the two guns are different and the barrels can't be fitted interchangeably. I loaded most of the 28 gauge shells used for the test fire of the first VGM/Krupp gun. 1700 rounds were fired out of the gun without a malfunction. Then the gun was taken apart by Gunter Pfrommer and checked for wear. There was virtually none. My friend bought the gun and has it today. Its serial number is 471003. The first two receivers didn't make it through customs....paperwork?
When I first visited the factory in 2000, there were very few people there. Nick Tooth and Charlie Goodberlet are the only two that I recall.
By the time they closed, there were at least a dozen full-time employees including two engravers, Jack Jones and Jeff Spicer, who operated out of an old railroad boxcar adjacent the main building.
Virtually the entire gun was made on the premises with the exception being barrel bluing and case coloring which was done six miles away at Turnbull's.
By the time my guns were built, ICD had switched over to the #471xxx gun. All the subsequent guns I bought were the newer version. That does NOT mean the Italian guns were of inferior quality. There are some who actually prefer the Italian version and they are knowledgeable individuals.
There were two TV shows made about ICD: (1). The Shotgun Journal - Ithaca Classic Doubles, (2). Gray's Sporting Journal - The Fowling Piece. For those really interested in how these guns were made, I suggest getting copies of these videos.

Tom, I did NOT see a "prototype". I saw two of the early Italian guns at Cabela's in Owatonna. (If they have price tags on them, presumably they are NOT prototypes!) Bill Taylor, who ran the Gun Library back then, agreed with me that the wood to metal fit was really poor (very proud wood). I have seen several others, some with much better fit. You (and others here) have admitted to various functioning problems with the ICD's, mostly the early ones. So . . . does that mean you need to check the SN before you buy? Far as I know, early to late, Parker Repro quality was quite consistent. (You get that on production guns; you don't always on "custom" guns, if the quality of the parts and the custom work isn't the same.)

The Parker Repro used the Parker single trigger. Many guys that reported problems with the trigger also reported that those problems were solved fairly quickly. No question, however, it's not as good a single trigger as the Miller. More Parker ST problems out there? Certainly . . . but then there must be something close to 10,000 ST Repros floating around, which is about 10x the entire ICD production--and kinda puts into perspective problems of any kind reported with Repros vs ICD's. However, DT guns to DT guns, what are the complaints about the Repros? The case colors fade, the DHE's don't have hand engraving. But they work very well, and consistently--and you don't need to check to see whether they were made with Italian parts or not--and the wood to metal fit is very consistent. Barrel blue . . . regardless of who did the ICD's and who did the Repros, I've never seen any kind of issue with Repro barrel blue. Very good work.

Whether SOME Italian guns are of "better" quality is not the issue. The issue is the inconsistency of the quality of the Italian guns, and there's no way you can talk your way around that--regardless who did the work.

It's not a question of my "loving" the Repro. I'm into calling a spade a spade. I've often commented that I don't particularly care for the Repro 20's, because I think they're on the heavy side--for 20's. The 28's and the 12's, I think are about where they need to be in terms of weight, for my taste, for those two gauges. But then I find many of the ICD's too heavy too, for either 20's or 28's.

And I beat you to the old RR station, Tom. I was there in the summer of 1999; don't know when Gunter took charge of the assembly process, but he wasn't there then--which means not all the guns were made under his watchful eye. (Again, consistency issues.)

Here are a couple of pictures of a gun I would love to own. This is an Ithaca Classic Doubles gun made in 2003 that is an example of what a quality gun is supposed to look like. Unfortunately, I was not in the position to buy it. This gun is a one of a kind engraved by Jeff Spicer and checkered by Ron Buck.
Most of the guns produced didn't leave the factory with issues. It does bother me every gun produced by ICD is tainted by the few that left with problems.
Winchester's Japanese plant had been operating for many years before they began the Parker project. Yet, they produced guns with both mechanical and cosmetic problems. If the current price is an indicator, these faults have been ignored by most and rarely mentioned...except by me. I bring it up only to illustrate that it's unfair to continually harp on one while the other goes down as a "classic".
I own Ithaca's of high quality. Yet, I know that there are guns out there that much better (not in workmanship but higher grade).
Every time ICDs are mentioned we hear about "proud wood" and Beschi's. This is unfortunate and will keep the many fine examples of truly wonderful guns from being recognized for what they are.





This is Ronnie Buck. You're still the man.

Tom, you have any photos of Parker Repros with proud wood? I don't know of anyone who "hides" the fact that there are indeed issues with the Parker ST's, or that the case colors fade. As for the current price for a 20ga Repro, it's not $6500, which you previously mentioned. There are a dozen DHE 20's on gunsinternational, only one of which is priced over $5K; several under $4K. Cabela's has two 20ga ICD's, one at $10K (with virtually no engraving, a "competition" gun) and the other at $8K. So you are indeed talking about a significant price difference. For which there ought to be a significant quality difference.

It is indeed unfair to lump REAL ICD's with the Beschi rejects. However, when your total production run is somewhere around 1,000 guns, it doesn't take many with issues to have a negative impact on all the rest. Advising potential buyers to take a hard look at the SPECIFIC ICD they're thinking about purchasing does not seem to me to be unfair or unwarranted advice.

Sorry for the delay in answering a few questions. The collective knowledge on the forum is what makes it truly great. I don't believe anyone could pick a double gun topic and not get helpful info from more than a few people.

Everything written here about the ICD guns of Italian origin "Beschi guns" is true to a degree. These where the parts kits I worked with and my sympathies go out to all the old ICD employees responsible for regulating these Beschi guns. I have encounter no problems with the krupp guns and considering the quality of some of the Beschi parts you have to give a lot of credit to the people that made them work despite the difficulty. That being said there are undoubtedly many beschi guns out there that have given great service and will continue to do so.

Some have asked about the problems I encountered with these guns. Just so everyone is clear there where no major systemic failures. Just basic regulation issues that where sometimes a pain to fix due to the quality of the Italian parts. such as

trigger pull weight
ejector regulation and other ejector issues
hammer sear engagement and the like

All fixable some more easily than others.

I would also like to say that If I found a Beschi gun for the right price I would buy it because whatever the potential problems I believe it could be put right.

The earliest of the ICD were stocked up with improperly dried & layed out lumber. They knew it but time constraints or just plain ignorance made the project push forward with it.
It caused the forwarned problems of warped stocks and gapped inletting. Some stocks were redone in an attempt to better their appearance and fit, but only so much can be done when starting from that point.
As is usual in most projects such as this, the push to get pieces ready for the displays at the SHOT show and other well attended shows made some poor decisioned short cuts in the first guns made.

I wouldn't use Cabella's as the final arbiter for the FMV of any shotgun. The cheapest price I found for a Parker Repro was $3,999 and it has a cracked stock. The most expensive was a 3 bbl set for the ridiculously low price of $13,500.

As for the price on their ICD's, I wish them well but won't be calling.

If I were in the market for another 20 gauge ICD, I would be all over the JTH Agency for $6,500. It's a great buy.

I doubt that it would take two years and $2,100 to solve a proud wood issue. It did with the small Parker Repro single trigger problem I had. There is someone walking around with a 28ga. Parker Repro and a Miller (Howard and Delbert) single trigger that cost $1,150 to install. The meter had been running for 18 months while others tried to do the impossible...get the trigger to work. I couldn't and wouldn't sell or trade a gun I considered intrinsically dangerous. By the time I got this gem to work, I couldn't stand the sight of it.

Fortunately, I don't have to live with proud wood...but I could.