doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Bochumer Verein German Steel Maker

Would anyone have any pre-WWII German examples(Belgian or French as the French occupied the region in early part of the 19th Century) of tubes made of steel from the Bochumer Verein facility in Bochum, Germany, http://www.route-industriekultur.de/en/a...ury-bochum.html ? I know there exist some post WWII examples that have the "Bochumer Verein" stamp just prior to the merging of Bochumer Verein & Krupp in 1966. Sauer used Krupp, http://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/konzern/geschichte_grfam_k3.html , I. Meffert used Heinrich Ehrhardt, http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?fid=893&lang=3 and others including Meffert may have used other maker's steel. Considering other gunmakers like Simson, whose steel did they use? I'm trying to chase down info on some of the German steel makers in a effort to compile a few paragraphs, which a couple expect this decade, on steel advances in the 19th century. I have additional info on Bochumer Verein if anyone is interested. Many folk think the names Krupp, Ehrhardt, Boehler, etc. made the weapons when they only made the steel and I haven't seen "Bochumer Verein" as a so called gunmaker yet and was curious if any examples existed.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey;
I have a Waffen-Frankonia catalog (The Hunter's Counselor) dated 1964. In it the Sauer models Kim & Royal dbls & the model 3000/3000 Delux drilling all are stated to have bbls made from Special Steel, "Bochumer Verein". Drilling DUR has a "Light Metal Action, Drilling ANT has bbls of Boehler Antinit NG & DURANT has a combination of the later two.
The Simson shotguns/drilling listed simply state "Special Steel".
On the steel specs page is also listed a steel know as "Boehler Special" so hard to say positively from this catalog just what steel the Simson used.
I do not recall seeing anything listed in this catalog with Krupp.

I have examples of Sauer, Merkel, Simson, (including guns marked Simson, BSW, and Gustloff Werke), Meffert, Griefelt, Emil Nordheim, Haenel, Max Fischer, R. W. S., and Heym all with Krupp barrels marked variously either simply Krupp Essen, Spezial Gewehr Laufstahl, or with a 3 ring Krupp logo or a 4 ring Krupp logo. I have not seen Bochumer Verein nor Rheinmetall barrels on any of my guns. Even the R. W. S. 16 hammer gun is with Krupp barrels, although I recall Raimey mentioning in the past some connection of R. W. S. with Rheinmettal from his research.

I have seen many different types of Krupp, and have seen unmarked German barrels of the period, but not the others. I would assume they were far smaller maker than Krupp, accounting for the far fewer examples.

Good luck, Raimey, with your research. Hope you can nail it down. If you do, a book is in order.

Another Waffenn-Frankonia, this one 1972-73.
Sauer models VIII, Royal & Artemis & 3000 drilling all list; "Läuf aus Krupp-Spezial-(3 ring logo)-Laufstahl".
Simson again just lists; "Läuf aus Spezialstahl"

ChiefShotgun:

The Meffert-Treff drilling I acquired from you had tubes of Ehrhardt/Rheinmetall steel. The tell-tale sign is a square inside a circle sometimes with Ehrhardt's name. I did omit at least 1 German maker which was Roechling, http://www.roechling.com/en/roechling-group/history.html . Sempert & Krieghoff-Waffen did offer tubes of steel from Boehler(Antinit), Krupp, Roechling(Elektro), Witten and I think Poldi-Antikorrostahl( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladno - Poldi's original home ). I don't know about a book, but maybe a few paragraphs as a reference.

2-piper:

Thanks for the info/leads. The 3-Ring is going to be Krupp and your references to the "Bochumer Verein" steel is exactly what I'm looking for, but pre-WWII(it may not exist). I've also seen the "Special Steel" and "Spezial Gewerlaufstahl" on Simsons but I can't make the leap to say it is Krupp steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am glad you can confirm the maker of the barrels on the Meffert drilling. I honestly would not have known what the square inside the circle figure meant even if I had seen it and paid attention to it. I also have a later post war Merkel 201 Luxus grade gun with Boehler steel barrels that I did not include in my list. We see so many unmarked barrels and/or guns from the pre-war German period, it's often very difficult to know exactly who made what. I would never have thought that a maker as large and well known as Griefelt would use Sauer barrels on one of their fine guns, but I have one clearly marked with the SUS intertwined mark in multiple places on the barrels.

Have a Charles Daly Diamond Quality, dated August, 1924, with Rochlings Spezial Steel. The mark of a hammer with a G on the left of it and R on the right appears on top of the breech of each barrel. I do not know the maker of this Daly.

Not to muddy the water, Jacob Mayer, the founder of B-V was apparently more of a humanatarian than Herr Krupp; perhaps that explains the lack of barrels? Some of Mayer's first steel casting specialities were church bells. Three of which, cast in 1854, still exist today.

In Manchester's book it states Krupp surrupticiously purchased Bochumer in 1958-59. With the purchase, the last Cannon King, Alfried Krupp, became once again the largest steel maker in Europe and one of only 5 billionaires extant in the world. Not too bad considering he had been released from prison for war crimes only 4 years earlier.

I would say my 1st guess on the Daly would be Sauer, but it would possibly have Krupp tubes. For now, in my mind I can't remember who I have associated with Rochlings Spezial Steel except Sempert & Krieghoff(Ludwig) who worked with Thomas Edison. They had intended to sell weapons and electrical "stuff". But in 1904, as per some sources, S.u.K acquired Val. Chris. Schilling. Ludwig Kreighoff expired in 1924 and his son Heinrich Krieghoff returned to take the reins of the company. "S.u.K." & "S & K" were their marks. Purportedly they supplied restocked German service rifles, or components, to August Schuler. Other sources give Albert & Moritz Schilling & Walter Schilling up to 1914 with Ludwig Bornhoft owning the whole lot in 1920. "V.C.S." was Schillings mark. Continuing a long tanget from the subject, does anyone have any info on Blickensdorfer & Schilling(Charles F.) from either St. Louis, Columbus, Ohio or Lancaster Pennsylavania in the 1870s?

True Jacob Mayer was quite the philanthropist and there was some controversy between BV & Krupp(on page 778 of Manchester's book I think I recall correctly) where at the Paris Expo, which was to rival Britian's previous Expo, Krupp took the center piece/ringer and melted it down to prove it was cast or something. I'll have to find the reference

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey
I have a C F Schilling St Louis 10 Ga-Too much to type. E-mail
your Phone # and I'll call
Reguards
Bill Mcphail

E. Schmidt & Habermann, "S & H", with owners of Richard, Franz and Paul Stadelmann, etal., used Krupp steel, Wittener Excelsior, Boehler, Roechling and Poldi.

Greif used Krupp and Boehler & Simson used Krupp on all but the highest grade which was Poldi-Anticorro.

Johann Springer's Erben(Wien/Vienna) may be the Thomas Kilby(T.K.) connection to Bohemia and Matska. He offered tubes in "Original Thomas Kilby", Boehler, Poldi, "English Siemens Martin", "English Kilby-Stahl"/"Kilby-Lauf" and then "Cocerill-Stahllaufe" on the lower grade/model "Spezial-Model" with an upgrade cost to either Poldi or Boehler.

Heym(Friedrich Wilhem) used Krupp steel tubes probably from Sauer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Schuler "upon demand" did offer tubes, at least on the O/Us, by Wittener Excelstorstahl, Krupp Spezialstahl and Bohler Antinit. As to yet, I can't find that they offered Rochling/Roechling(Rochling Eisen and Stahlwerk with Carl Rochling(1827-1910-not the artist) and Hermann Rochling(1872-1855) - - http://www.saarstahl.com/geschichte_voelklingen.html?&L=1 , who appear to have been tightly connected to the Nazis and the French De Wendel folk.

Merkel in the mid 1920s offered tubes of Krupp, Roechling, Poldi and Boehler steel.

Other steel makers with a presence in Germany:

Fasterstoff - little info yet,
Skoda - http://www.quel.nl/Toeleveranciers/skoda-steel/19041
Witkowitz / Vitkovice Iron and Steel Works in Moravia was owned by the Austrian Rothschilds with partners brothers Wilhelm and David von Gutmann. It appears to be/have been Jewish.

I also forgot Thyssen - Friedrick Thyssen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And I totally missed the boat by not including Witten: (click on "cast steel plant witten" http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG . Constans Louis Berger, http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG , of the Carl Berger & Co. Cast Steel company in 1856 married into the Harkort Industrial family, http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DX , and this coupled with being a member of the Reichstag is probably the reason Witten steel was highly noted steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

F. W.(Friedrich Wilhelm) Kessler(7.26.1845 to 9.07.1919) offered tubes in:
Krupp, generally
Rochling Spezial Steel(recommended for- "pureness and tenacity"
Bohler Spezial Steel
Krupp Spezial Steel
Witterner Excelsior Steel
Bohler Antinit Steel

So yet another offered Rochling. Considering the "Whitworth mark" thread, anyone know if the mill or the tube maker pressed the name of the steel maker into the tube?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Louis Constans Berger was born August 28, 1829 in Witten and passed this life on August 9th of 1891. He was the son of Carl Ludwig Berger and in 1854 founded Guss-stahl-fabrik Carl Berger & Company, which I think later became the Gussstahl-Werk Witten(Witten Cast Steel Works). In 1873 the Witten Cast Steel Works was incorporated while Carl Ludwig Berger was a member of the German Reichstag, so one can only guess at his political connections.

I say this in a preface for a question in the quest of the origin of the "Sl" mark which on this E. Schmidt & Habermann(guess) drilling is coupled with a "Witten" mark.

The "Sl" wasn't a "SH" and I don't think it to be for Schmidt & Habermann as they didn't make their tubes but sourced them.

By the way, Heinrich EhrhardtRheinmetall / worked for a number of years as an engineer for a cast steel works in Witten(I assume Berger but will entertain other options), where he improved the production of train axles. In 1878 the 38-year-old Ehrhardt founded his own small machine tool factory in Zella Saint Blasii.

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

This may explain it as in the late 1870s Belgium purchased some of the Steinhauser Works of Witten infrastructure: http://books.google.com/books?id=5XGBAAA...ny&f=false, ; therefore, Sl(Syndicat Liegeois), could still apply to the "Sl" stamp.

Anyone confirm that Witten Excelsior steel came from Witten or Essen?

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

Yes, Excelsior(a quality mark & possibly trademark) did come from Gußstahlwerke Witten, A.G.(Witten Cast Steel Works with Witten of course as the city) founded and owned by Louis Constans Berger. It was a crucible steel(guess that??) and they made all kinds of parts including bicycle as well as armour plating. They also performed pressure test on their tubes and the info exists in an iron & steel text from the turn of the 20th century. I guess Excelsior to have surfaced in the late 1890s or circa 1900 but a little more research might narrow the date. Now a set of tubes with Witten Excelsior and the trademark would be from the Witten area. Just the term "Witten", I'm not sure and it may have been a Cast Steel Works process manufactured in Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This 63' Royal is advertised as having Bochumer barrels.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/JP-Sauer-Royal-12-ga-BLE-Beavertail.cfm?gun_id=100109234

Interesting find Patriot: http://www.doublegunhq.com/ItemImages/3650_Photo_1.jpg .

http://www.doublegunhq.com/itemDetails.aspx?id=3650

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I just wanted to note that equating the "Sl", which typically holds the position of the tube maker and is usually slightly worn or overstamped by proofhouse marks, is still a variable or wildcard and is undefined for now. It could be for Sigmund Loewe, brother of Ludwig & Isidor Loewe, who all founded Ludwig Loewe & Company in 1870 but I would think him to be more in the business end instead of the barrel making section. There's the Illig family who did compete in competitions but I don't know anymore than that. But the "Sl" mark does crop up from time to time and is seen on pattern welded tubes as well as cast/fluid steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse