doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Stock Finish - Your Take

I use African Express London gun finish the most. I have done several stocks in it and have had great results. You can also modify the look from high gloss to satin based on how you apply the finish during the final few coats. It tends to help bring out the grain in wood as well.

Are you guys familiar with "Gunstock Finishing and Care" by Donald Newell? It is a must for those interested in finishing gunstocks. It has almost every trick in the book and discusses all kinds of different finishes.

Stallones,
I too like Watco Danish Oil. I usually slurry the finish in with 400 grit wet/dry and then wipe off with a clean cloth. I have used this on furniture and it really gives it a nice smooth sheen. I usually top the furniture with Tung Oil, sometimes up to 20 coats. I have used it on gunstocks doing it the same way, and then finished with a mixture of tung oil, linseed oil, spar varnish, japan dryer and some mineral spirts. Have also used True Oil and 0000 steel wooled the final finish to soften it.
Nice job on the Parker.

Ted,
Use the gloss poly first, apply thin and then for the finish coat use the satin. The satin is dilluted and doesn't have the properties of the gloss. Also if you use the water based poly it is a harder finish, as the dryer is water, not mineral based.

As far as being waterproof, they are all water resistant. Unless you coat the entire stock (inside) it is all irrelevant as to being waterproof as water will seep into that wood.

Something to consider:

Synthetic sealants effectively 'seal' the wood and don't allow it to breath. A proper oli finish does need a spot of oil rubbed in after a lot of rain but is harder wearing than many give it credit for.

You cannot stop moisture getting into the wood - it will get in!

Allowing it to get out evenly and gradyually through a proper oil finish gives it beter recovery time and the finish will go back with very little efort. Also, scratches and dents are easily dealt with.

I have to disagree with Ted; I hunt with all my guns in any kind of weather and they all have Tru-oil finishes. I find it easy to use and with a pleasing satin finish. After the gun has dried from a rain hunt, I rub in a coat of a mixture of 1/3 each Tru-oil, artists cold pressed linseed oil and turpentine. By the way, David (Furman), either you are exaggerating the cold Northeast temperatures, or you mean 0 degrees Celsius.0 degrees Kelvin is the same as -273 degrees Celsius...absolute zero! It doesn't even get that cold here in Wyoming :<).
Joe

I also disagree about oil finishes being poor in wet weather. They have used them in England (where it is known to rain from time to time)for who knows how long on better guns than I have without the stocks getting water stained. I think the biggest problem is people do not maintain the oil finish. I have oil finishes on all of my shotgun and rifle stocks and have no trouble with this type of finish. I have used these guns in all kinds of bad weather from down poors and ice storms, to snow storms.

Wood is a cellulose sponge, containing harder structural elements, but a sponge, nevertheless.

As an oversimplified example, imagine taking a sponge off the kitchen sink and trying to apply a permanent 'seals all finish'. If you look at the end grain with even 10X magnification, no matter how dense and solid wood may appear to be, the anatomy is evident.

ALL of the discussions and recipes and results and arguments are subordinate to the actual structure of wood, which is NOT what we fondly perceive as a pretty and homogeneous solid material. The extant gunstock finishing literature and discussions rarely, if ever, discuss this aspect: the finisher is applying a thin skin of a sealing material on a much bulkier, completely porous material, that was once filled with water, but is now mostly hollow where the water once resided.

In past discussion there have been hundreds of 'surefire' and favorite finishes discussed. Some work much better than others. Some finishers can make a formulation work for them, that would be a PIA for another fellow. Ted S's application is typical of the simpler ones which I have found to have both performance and aesthetic value. But it's certainly not the only finish that works, to the satisfaction of application and performance for each person. Nor, do I think,is there any such material and procedure that would fit that description.

Note that I do not compare beauty, glow or dazzle or other properties of the optical window which folks so lovingly apply to the wood. One could use rubbed-in human skin oil and eventually get the pores filled, with a sorta greasy shine.

In order to seal the wood, the interior cell walls, vessels, and other permeable membranes need to be prevented from taking up water again, which they happily do so at the slightest opportunity. Even soaking the wood for a long time in a tank of finish MAY not accomplish that. It may not provide complete permeation. As well, you have just added substantial weight, and none of us will live long enough to find out how long that finish-logged wood will take to cure hard.

However, for the general weal and finish tinkerers everywhere, may I suggest:

Vacuum Impregnation of the stock, with a hard marine varnish [Pro-fin], and then after fully filling the interior vessels and cells, a Vacuum Extraction of a certain percentage. That percentage of 100% interior sealant coverage will have to be determined by experimentation, and probably measured by weight of the wood before and after [as a suggestion].

Now, the ideal which I am striving to achieve, is that all the porous material within the wood to have been exposed to finish, and 90% or so of it be drawn right back out. Then the stock is set to cure. In effect the WOOD SKELETON has been fossilized with a highly water repellent material, that is compatible with almost any surface treatment which the finisher wishes to apply: to his own artistic and aesthetic satisfaction.

Over in the custom rifles forum, there have been been finishing topics and knowledgeable contributions. Especially so, has been one by SDH-MT, who has been pursuing the perfect finish for as long as he's been working. ;~`)For many years, in my trade as furniture build/repair/restore/conserve guy, this finishing discussion has been playing in a mind-loop. There is never going to be any one answer, or technique, or material that will suit all purposes and applications, let alone the emotional needs of the user.

However, to get a wooden stock to be as stable and waterproof and have as durable a surface as one could want, my conclusion is that whatever one wishes to use for an exterior skin is of little account, COMPARED TO the vast, cavern-filled core.

At this point, however painful it will be, one must become acquainted with Bruce Hoadley's easily accessible work "Understanding Wood". Well, OK; at least look at the pictures. The anatomy of wood is simply not solid; it is a hardened skeletal sponge. Keep the liquid and vapor water out of that, and the final finish is mostly just cosmetic.

As to the actual subject of finishes, there are wonderful, scientifically based comparisons of the qualities each component and mixture brings to the final visual top top film. Look up about any good Wood finish book published in the past five years or so, and use the tables of comparison. I know that this presupposes rational thought being applied to a highly emotional subject. That's IS lot to ask, considering the elephantine discussions that 'finishes' have previously engendered.

But I tell you straight and true: without a simple, science-based understanding of the properties of wood AND the properties of finish and finish components, then we are merely having a good 'hot stove and campfire', anecdotal, shoot the b-shix, good ol' time. I say this not to denigrate any contributor's experience, accumulation of recipes, wonderful results and the like. It is just that such an art as that to which we all aspire, is in the end, a technical matter.

If it is true that Francis Bacon developed the idea of scientific observation and Western Civ refined it into a knowledge revolution, then perhaps it would make sense to start an inquiry into "What is wood?" and "What comprises a finish?" with the current publications of scientists and industrial standards.

The TRVTH is out there.

[Thank you, Mulder and Scully]

John M,
I am interested in hearing how you vacuum impregnate a sealer into the stock. I have used heat in the past to help draw oil deeper into the wood. As I do not have a background in polymer and coatings it is hard to understand how some of the sealers work better than others. All I can do is trial and error. Using a marine varnish as you suggest, are there any problems with using oil finishes, as they might not be able to be drawn into the wood very well due to the internal skeleton has been sealed through the vacuum process?

I have not made a vacuum box. However, my initial thoughts are that it would have to be sturdy enough to stand drawing an atmosphere, or so, of pressure.

As to coatings, go thee to a library and order in some of the newly published finish books for the woodworking fraternity. I'd suggest a getting few, as each author has their own ideas about preference3s and usage. Then just start comparing the tables of finishes. As well, reading thru a couple of them is giant leap for stock-finisher kind.

After vacuum impregnation and extraction the wood will not be a solid chunk of fossilized finish. With enough trial and error [scientific method ;~`)], most of the initial sealant varnish will be pulled right back out of the wood. In a lab, it has been demonstrated that it is nearly impossible to extract all of a liquid finish from a piece of sample wood. With some more trial and error, the minimal required residual amount needed can be established, by means of measurements of microscope and scale.

The exterior pores should have plenty of 'tooth' to take stains and finishes to achieve the final look. However, the traditional filling and polishing process should go quicker, as the fibers and vesicle walls are already sealed.

A dye could also be incorporated in a pre-finish impregnation vacuum process to stain the wood. As well, a tint could be given to the sealant varnish. Great colorants are on the woodworker finishing marget today. Lots and lots of mebbes, eh?

Unfortunately for my own continued participation, I have all the joys of self-employment, with very little time to follow up this suggestion. It's been in mind for at least a decade, every since I saw at a conservation seminar, the results of some impregnation/extraction tests of stabilizers used on historic wood

So, I end as I started: for the general weal. Finish tinkers and those of inquisitive mind are welcome to the idea. My own life is full, so even tho I think that the idea has merit, it is quite unlikely that I shall ever do more about it than to post it here and offer it as I have.

Happy hunting, one and all. Feel free to E-mail me, or get my phone number if you wish to discuss this. However, first read Hoadley and a couple of modern finish books, as most the answers to questions already lie within them. OTOH, if you just want to talk 'guns', what da heck? After 9PM, West End of lake Erie time,pliz.;~`)

Powder smoke and a dog; what more for happiness?

Yeah, right: I already thot of THAT! ;~`)

Min-Wax Wipe on Poly is my current favorite. I apply it using the sanded-in method. After the last 600 grit sanding with all pores filled, I wipe on a thin coat of satin and that's it. No rubbing out needed as it leaves a thin uniform film with just the right moderate gloss for me.

OB