doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 16 Ga question

Anybody know what year they switched the length of the shell from 2 9/16" to 2 3/4" ? I have a Ithica I picked up that was made in 1922 but it doesn't say what length shells it takes. Thank you. Jeff

Different companys did it at different times, but your 1922 gun will most likely be 2 9/16.

L.C. Smith changed around 1936

L.C. Smith changed the 20 ga. from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" in 1936, my L.C.Smith 16 ga. circa 1939 has 2 9/16" chambers. Like Don said they were done at different times, and I agree with him as to your chamber length.

ITHACA CHAMBERS -- The last Flues period catalogue (1925) states -- "Unless otherwise ordered Ithaca 28 Gauge and 20 Gauge guns are chambered for the standard 2 1/2 inch shell, 16 Gauge and 12 Gauge for the standard 2 3/4 inch shell and 10 Gauge for the standard 2 7/8 inch shell. Longer chambers are furnished if ordered on new guns without extra charge, but it should be remembered that shells of standard length do not give quite as good results in chambers which are longer than the shells and it should be remembered that extra long shells are more expensive and it is much harder to find a dealer who carries extra long shells in stock." I find that 2 3/4 inch pretty strange in the 16-gauge, because 2 9/16 was the standard 16-gauge shell until WW-II!?! None of my earlier Flues period catalogues mention chamber lengths.

Beginning with the first NID catalogue in 1926 they state -- "Unless otherwise ordered Ithaca .410 Cal. and 20 Gauge guns are chambered for the standard 2 1/2 inch shell, 16 Gauge for 2 9/16 inch, 12 Gauge for 2 3/4 inch and 10 Gauge for the standard 2 7/8 inch shell." The 28 gauge doesn't appear in NID period catalogues until 1932 though they did make some. Beginning with the 1927 catalogue the sentence is changed to -- "Unless otherwise ordered Ithaca .410 Cal. guns are chambered for the standard 2 1/2 inch shell, 16 Gauge for 2 9/16 inch, 20 and 12 Gauge for 2 3/4 inch and 10 Gauge for the standard 2 7/8 inch shell." Ithaca catalogues for 1926, 1927, 1927-1928, 1928, 1928-1929, 1929, 1930, 1931-1932, 1932, No. 50F, and No. 51S, all list 16-gauge as 2 9/16-inch chambers. Beginning with the 1932 catalogue the 28-gauge with 2 7/8 inch chamber is added to the list and it also introduces the 3 1/2 inch Magnum Ten Gauge. By Ithaca catalogue No. 51F the 16-gauge is finally listed with 2 3/4-inch chambers and the 410-bore with 3-inch chambers. I believe the catalogues No. 51 equate to 1934.

I think Researcher once listed early 30's for the Ithaca switch to 2 3/4" 16. Any Flues 16's with 2 3/4", I'd be suspicious of punched chambers. Hunter was about the last company to make the jump. I just sold a 1938 Fulton, and it was still 2 9/16".

Researcher, we posted simultaneously. Glad to see my memory still works fairly well!

Thanks guy's I shot a couple light loads through it in 2 3/4" & it didn't look like they opened all the way, so I haven't fired it since. Anybody know where I can get 2 9/16" shells? I got a steal on the gun, now I know why. Thank you. Jeff

Hey can these barrels be machined out to 2 3/4" or is that not a good idea. The Gun is a Light weight & the barrels are fluid steel, not Dumascus. It is in Good shape. I am not sure what this will do to the value of the gun, just curios. Thanks. Jeff

You should stick to light loads with your Flues model Ithaca:
Polywad 'Vintager' http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com
Eley subsonic/low recoil http://eleyshotshells.com
ARMUSA 'Vintage' http://www.armusa-performance.com
Kent http://www.firearmservice.com
RST
http://www.rstshells.com[/URL] 570-553-1651

As has been discussed several times, shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 9/16" chambers increases pressures little (not more than an additional 300 PSI) BUT pressure and recoil are not the same thing. You still have a gun with 80 year old wood and shooting light loads would seem reasonable. I think you've already reviewed this thread over on 16ga.com http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1694

First,I don't think that the difference in length is unsafe so the only thing that you have to worry about is how well the gun shoots.That's easy to determine. Pattern the gun.If the gun shoots well,just keep on shooting. If it does not,consider opening the chamber to2 3/4".I doubt
that you will have to.
Best regards to All
Gene

There are several makers of 2 1/2" 16ga. shells.

IMO, you and the gun will both be happiest if you stick to light shot charge shells of known low pressure. Note that USA modern 2 3/4" shells are to SAAMI standards and will be of relatively high pressure. Opening the chambers to 2 3/4" does little to nothing useful for you. you want low pressure for the metal and low recoil for you and the wood parts.

A 250 unit bulk box of Polywad Vintagers will run in the $90 region on your doorstep. "Cheaper" can be had by handloading 2 3/4" cases to known/published data with low pressure and light shot charges.

Some gents say I am nuts or forgetful, but when I was a kid my Grandmother let me use my deceased Grandfather's 16 gauge, M-37 Ithaca pump gun. It had a solid rib and I remember it as yesterday (most all my buddies had single barrel shotguns). Anyway, the regular 2-3/4" shells would hang up in the ejection carrier and I had to pull them out with a finger. I searched the hardware stores, neighbors, etc. for the older 2-9/16" shells, which were very hard to find in the early 60's. Otherwise, I had a single shot pump gun. I authored a thread on this a while back and everyone told me the solid rib 37 was introduced well after the 2-3/4" shells were standard. No, the ejection carrier wasn't bent. Oh yeah, it said Ithaca on the barrel, not Remington. The port in the gun was just a hair too short for 2-3/4" shells. Silvers

Silvers: Your discussion of your Ithaca 37 is particularly interesting to me. I have the same problem with my Winchester M12 16 ga.(made in 1941)--the cases occasionally get stuck in the ejection port when I try to eject them. Although I'm not an expert, the ejector and extractor look fine. I assume the problem is that the port is just a little too small.

I should also note that my father's Ithaca 37, which was manufactured during the late 1940s-early 1950s, periodically suffers from fired cases getting stuck in the chamber. They can only be removed by letting the gun cool off a bit, and then exerting A LOT of force on the slide. I recently purchased some chamber gauges from Brownells, and I was surprised to find that the chamber comes up about 1/16"-1/8" SHORT of the 2 3/4" length that is marked on the barrel! I rigorously cleaned the chamber with a variety of methods--including bronze wool on the end of a rod powered by a drill. But even after all this the chamber still comes up short. I assume the short chamber is the cause of the stuck cases.

I wonder how often production guns went out of the factory like this!

The B&P 16 ga shells are 67 mm which is still a little more than 2 9/16", but close.

The B&P F2Classic 16g 1 1/16 oz 5 is my pheasant load. They now offer F2 Sub Sound and MB Light but ONLY in 12g. http://www.bandpusa.com/

Some Gunmakers intentionally chambered their guns about 1/8" short, feeling they got better performance, giving a better seal with the old card & filler wads.
Miller

Thanks guys!!!!

I ordered a case on revdocdrew's reccomendation and they where great to deal with. I talked with Lisa (x 109),and she emailed confirmation in minutes and had the order on its way.
Their cases are 8 boxes.
Dave K