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King it boils down to we pay taxes up the ying yang, espically those of us who may employ others and do not sit home watching MTV Cribs and Ophra all day. By the looks of things we are going to have to pay even more for people that do. And for a plethera of new entitlement programs. But that is the fear, look at Wall Street it is terrified of the new administration also.

The republicans arrogance caused an inability to read or even care about the middle class dissatisfaction. That is the feeling that I get with the party of the BUSHIES, they do not give a sh*t about anybody (except Chaney and Rumsfield and OIL) and the people really feel that.

But what is still amazing to me, is our ecomemy is a disaster, we are bogged down in 2 wars, Bush has the Midas touch in reverse(in as everything he touches turns to crap), McCain could not remember if Joe the Plumber was in his presents each night and they picked either a) a dizzy chick from Alaska, or b) someone that just was not ready for the job and if so, shame on them. And even with all of that the Demacrats still only won by 6%. HMMMMMMMMM.

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These are hard times and it will get worse. I'm an optimist, though, and think American resilience, resourcefulness and spunk will pull the country and the rest of the world through. Obama has the luxury of being able in a crisis to do things that would not normally be possible in the economy. It will involve sacrifice---there's no other way out---and technology isn't the answer because it can't rewrite the laws of supply and demand and rewire the human character. Leadership, a cool hand inspiring others to work with America will do the trick.

As for the drain of those wars, Iraq is winding down and I think Obama, taking advice from his commanders, will break his promise of an Afghanistan surge. He'll do what we're doing, getting out in 2011 after 10 years of combat and training the Afghan Army to look after the country's security. There's no way to turn a theocracy into a democracy from the outside. Your able defence minister Mr. Gates has emphasized limiting the depths of US military involvement in a country that has ground down foreign armies for centuries.

I want Brian home in one piece.

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Originally Posted By: King Brown
Nitro, you may impute any motive to me you like but you show no respect for your character or others by calling me a liar---one who says what he knows not to be true. Insults have no place on this board.


I explained it to you above, King. I posted the facts. I feel that I have given you all the "respect" that you deserve for your above post. It's real simple. Obama's tax message was NOT "right out of the Gipper's playbook". Reagan's tax policy was the opposite of Obama's, and the theories behind each have nothing in common whatsoever. The statements you made that I responded to in your post above are, factually, utterly false. You posted those statements as fact rather than speculation.

That left three possibilities:

1. You are too fundamentally ignorant of US tax policy - the subject on which you presumed to post comments as fact - to be making such comments, and are so uninformed that you don't know any better. Not a reflection on anyone, as our tax laws, the history of them, and the theories behind them are extremely complex. For the same reason, the information on the issue that you get from mainstream media is extremely unreliable. Most people simply don't have a clue.

2. Your statements were political dogma with no reference to fact, but falsely presented as based in fact.

3. You are well-informed on the issue, but chose to misrepresent the facts in order to fit your needs.

I didn't call you a liar, King. I said you lied. As I do Obama, I assume you to be a reasonably intelligent person, although in your case, perhaps, betrayed by altruism (which I don't believe Obama possesses). I didn't assume "1" above of a reasonably intelligent guy and journalist. If I made a mistake there, then indeed, I went too far, and apologize. For any other possibility, I stand by what I said.

Originally Posted By: King Brown
You should be aware that McCain advocated a 4-per-cent tax cut for the rich


An intellectually and economically sound, proven, and apolitical policy. McCain watched Reagan's tax policies work, and believed in them.

Originally Posted By: King Brown
and an 0.2-per-cent tax cut for the working poor, perceived as callous and gauche by many.


A fallacy invented by Obama's camp. Our working poor pay no income taxes now. How can you cut what is not there?

Originally Posted By: King Brown
Obama promised tax cuts for 90 per cent of all American families. Obama adapted Reagan and Kennedy policies for himself:


Obama proposes a tax increase for the "rich" and a cut for the middle class and below. Once again, no trace of Reagan's policies in Obama's tax plan.

Originally Posted By: King Brown
nonpartisan, nonideological, smart politics.


Intensely ideological, strictly social, and irresponsible promotion of class warfare when sound, proven economic policy is needed instead.

Originally Posted By: King Brown
What's untruthful of Obama's message having a Reagan resonance---of Reagan's tapping into middle class dissatisfaction---and the debate over before it began?


There's nothing truthful about it whatsoever. Reagan's policies, and the theories and historical experiences behind them, have NOTHING in common with Obama's. Further, Reagan responded to overall dissatisfaction of the country, not middle class dissatisfaction.

Reagan's tax policies were so successful because he was able to grasp a basic, paradoxical, but now well known, truth - high tax rates on the rich REDUCE tax revenue from the rich. They simply "hibernate" in reaction to higher tax rates aimed at them, resulting in a stagnant economy and lower tax revenues.

I remember those days before the Reagan cuts very well. I remember the constant complaints from wealthy clients. "Gee, I'm already making $500,000 a year. If the government is going to take 50-70% of whatever extra I make, why should I take the risk, work the extra hours, and spend the money to open this new division? The headache isn't worth the reward." And so, they didn't. I watched this time after time.

Reagan was no orator, but they didn't call him the "Great Communicator" for nothing. Deeply convinced that he was right about tax policy, he was able to communicate that conviction, and sell it. His tax policy was highly successful, and I was in a good position to watch it work. Despite deep cuts in tax rates on the rich, tax revenues from the rich, if I remember correctly, had doubled by the time he left the White House.

Obama's "plan" is based on neither tax policy theory, nor tax policy reality. His tax message isn't even about economic policy. It's social policy alone, just tired collectivist dogma. "Times are bad, so it must be the rich exploiting the peasants again. Gotta to stay on message. No matter that I'll raise taxes in the segment that will do the most harm to the economy, ultimately shifting that burden to the middle class, I'll just blame it on Bush". Like I said, cynically stealing from their Lordships to buy votes from the peasants, with concern for neither the peasants nor the country as a whole.

Originally Posted By: King Brown
As others pointed out here, given the average person's limited capacity to fret over the rich, McCain's drawing attention to Obama's proposed higher tax rates for wealthy Americans was an improbable strategy.


Not improbable at all. McCain adopted Reagan's strategy because it was proven, but had little gift as an orator, or salesman. Although unfortunately vacuous, Obama is a fine orator. So was Castro.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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...and when Castro overthrew Battista, there was great joy among the masses, and tears of happiness and dancing in the streets.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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That's pretty artful casuistry, Nitro. If "McCain watched Reagan's tax policies work, and believed in them," as you say, why didn't he use them as Obama and Reagan did---and won?

It can't be excused as poor skills on McCain's part; he had all the communications tools at hand and two years to use them. It was Obama who used Reagan's pitch of fighting for average Americans, not McCain.

I posted here last week that "Obama is in" because "the conservatives gave it away." There wasn't a world of doubt on election night. One early glimpse of the gathering crowds at Grant Park, with enough flags for a coronation, proved it.

With all the polls blinking blue, the only question was whether it would be a landslide. Let's be honest with ourselves: with rampant greed ruining millions of Americans, a promise of more equitable distribution of wealth was appealing.

Last edited by King Brown; 11/08/08 11:12 PM.
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Originally Posted By: rabbit
A lot of this crap about "card-carrying liberals" and "Marxist socialists is just crap. I'd as soon see my taxes pay to feed the poor as pay to shoot them.


Couldn't agree more jack ... grotesque, twisted up ideological thinking. Maybe saying so will get me on someone's list of names to remember.

Jay

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Middle class, and "average Americas" excites the masses, but don't be fooled! There isn't enough money to feed the middle class. The handouts will go to those who found drugs and gang banging a faster track to get outta the hood than finishing up high school.
Btw Rabbit, who has to pay to shoot 'em - they do a pretty good job on themselves. The rub is, we have to pay for them being bad shots at the ER and ICU.
DOA is better and cheaper!

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Originally Posted By: King Brown


With all the polls blinking blue, the only question was whether it would be a landslide. Let's be honest with ourselves: with rampant greed ruining millions of Americans, a promise of more equitable distribution of wealth was appealing.


King, the only thing this showed is that the very well funded Obama campaign figured a way to shall I say brainwash the young and get the poor urban vote via the help of ACORN. That coupled with the normal democratic vote and presto you get your crowds gathering at Grant Park.

And for the promise of a more equitable distribution of wealth.......why do I get the feeling, that none will be coming my way? Maybe cause I wasn't at the park because I have a job. Just a aspiring plummer, ha ha.

One other thing, if you lived here, would you be all hipped up about this so called appealing re-distribution of wealth gig?

Tim

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Intimidation, black lists, historical chimeras, lines in the sand. And I say to myself what a wonderful world?

jack

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From Acorn's webpage:



"Acorn says communities need BETTER SCHOOLS
NO to lowering taxes to MILIONAIRES"

If this is not stirring the social pot ...

The worst part of their agenda -in my view- is shown by what they did with New York Schools where they prevented a private for profit organization taking over the worst schools there.
What they want is to run the schools themselves to be able to indoctrinate the children. The agenda is the same over here: no private schools with government help; no vouchers for the people so they can CHOOSE where they get their health care; raising of the minimum wage that only causes unemployment (BTW Acorn campaigns for minimum wage raises but had to be forced by the courts to pay it in California, because they said it did not apply to their workers, go figure).

This "stealth leftist movement" is going on all over the place and we have to be vigilant.

JC


"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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