doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Welding a top lever back together?

I got my new Syracuse arms AE today(thanks MD) and the top lever is broken in half. What are my options for getting it welded? Can it be done properly with a wirefeed welder or an arc welder?


On a side note, somebody broke this lever trying to get it off the gun. If you are trying to get the top lever off a Syracuse arms gun you need to pull the triggerplate off and remove the spring plate, springs and lever hold open device etc, then drive the pin that the sears rotate on out far enough that it is only holding on the far side sear and pull the punch back out so it is just holding the near side sear. The pin retains the top lever shaft. Then you can remove the top screw and drive the shaft out the bottom of the receiver and remove the lever. Sure seems like a lot of work just to remove the lever


Ross

Have it tig welded. Someone will chime in with a name sooner or later. Good luck.

Any good welder in your area should be able to TIG weld it. Your might find one as easy as checking your phone book. Good luck.

Ross, thanks for the heads up. I have a SAC that I plan to restock and engrave, this info will surely save me a pile of trouble. Ken

Ross,

It should be TIG welded. It is an easy job for most any good welder with a TIG machine. I could do it for you if you care to mail it to me. If not make sure that who ever you have do it bewvels both pieces so that the weld is full penetration. The root pas should be allowed to cool completely before the final pass. If they don't it will shrink in length possibly as much as 1/16". Finally make sure it is aligned and straight before welding.

Bill G.

Ross: The rest of the story: Ii wasn't broken in trying to remove it (although I have done a lot of things every bit that stupid).. I shipped to a buyer a few years ago and forgot to put the lever back in the center position. The USPO apparently dropped something quite heavy on it, breaking the lever. That's the only time I've committed this stupid blunder.. Another good thing to remember.. MDC

My reccomendation is to send it to a gunmaker who TIG's. Your corner welding shop probably has people with the welding ability to do it, but not likely to have proepr gun knowledge. When I was younger I worked in a fab shop and people would walk in off the street with a broken gun a couple of times a month. I was the only gun crank working there, so I was always involved in the repair/modification. Looking back now, I shudder when I think about what we did to those poor guns. I ownder if some are still useable today.

About 5 years ago, Steve Hughes had a 2 part article in Shooting Sportsman about TIGing guns. He tried to drive home the point that welding ability was only half of the equation, with gun knowledge being an equal half.

I make guns, and TIG, at least 5 days every week. I often hear people say "it's easy, all you have to do is XXX." This is a sincere statement, but they are almost always just echoing what they read on the internet or in a magazine. While they have the best of intentions and may know the Cliffe Notes version of what needs to be done, the devil is in the details and this is what they have no experience with.

Would you let a tool and die maker at your local machine shop make a new pendulum for your Rolex, or would you send it in to an authorized service center?

MDC,
I was taking the toplever off of my old parts gun to see how to do it on the new gun and was having to restrain myself from forcing it off, until I figured out the sear pin was retaining the shaft. I figured somebody ran out of patience and decided to pry it off. When I received my Remington CEO it had a broken firing pin. I pulled the screws out of the triggerplate and worked and worked to get the triggerplate off. After considering a crowbar out of desperation, I noticed that I hadnt removed the screw under the toplever. :rolleyes: Since then I have to remind myself not to force anything on these old doubles.

I am really pleased with the gun, Thanks
Ross

Notice the difference between the shape of the broken toplever(serial number in the 5500 range) and the lever I pulled off (31000 range). Both are AE guns but that early one shows a lot more time was spent on finishing the gun.

The early gun is filed much nicer. The rib extension scallop is continued onto the lever and the lever is more delicate looking all over. Maybe it is not as strong but it makes for a more lovely appearance. Ross

Ross,

I agree with Mark's comments about a welder having expierence welding gun parts. But for what it is worth an expierenced TIG welder will have no problem welding a top lever. My own expierence and comments do not come from Cliff Notes or the internet or a magazine article. I've been welding for over twenty years and I've done as many gun parts as anybody out there.

Bill G.

Bill,
If I cant find somebody locally, I will take you up on your offer. Thanks, Ross

Send it to Bill G. Great guy to talk with and he knows welding!
Cheers,

Another consideration with gun parts is it's material. I wonder why it snapped and just didn't bend. Even being casehardend it should have bent. I would anneal it before welding. That can be done in your oven on the clean cycle. If you don't you may end up with a big blob of porosity at the weld zone. Hopefully they didn't use cast iron for that part. That will make things really tricky. I agree that someone that works on guns and welds would be a better choice for the repair. There is functional welding and restoration welding and the corner shop may just weld it for function. I also weld for a living and wouldn't let many of the guys I work with get anywhere near my guns with a welding rig.

Reb:
Congratulations on the SAC acquisition and hopefully the top-lever will be a minor repair issue. You have made some astute observations on the early and later SAC gun differences; and are correct in your evaluation of top-lever modifications. Top-levers on the earliest guns are the most delicate (the earliest example I have seen is serial number 37, and an even earlier prototype with some unusual features); then the levers are "beefed-up somewhat by serial number 5XXX, and finally transition into the "clubby" shaped levers seen on your later gun (differences which I attempted to illustrate in one of my SAC articles). However, the amount of metal in a SAC top lever was also determined, to some unknown extent, by the weight of the gun; lighter guns got more filing, and heavier guns less. In the case of your early AE, your photo shows the frame to exhibit what I have referred to (due to my ignorance for a better term) as "flattend" breech balls, whereas the later gun has the typical and most common rounded breech ball treatment. I have seen a fair number of SAC guns with the flattened breech ball feature (to include one lower grade model, a Grade 2), and all were lightweight guns with 28" barrels. It is not uncommon to see 28" guns without that feature; but they are generally heavier. I have never recorded a SAC gun having 30" or 32" barrels with the "flattened" breechball feature (but there's likely one out there somewhere!). Originally I thought this a feature used only on the earliest SAC graded guns; but have since seen the one lower grade, and presently own two late examples (1902 and 1904) also having that feature, and again both are 28" lightweight guns. The later example is a CE Grade; and, at some point prior to my acquisition, it also suffered a broken top lever; a problem that a previous owner resolved by replacing the lever with an unengraved piece salvaged from a low grade gun. As C Grade SAC guns are very rare, I have yet to find the appropriate engraving pattern so that the replacement can be re-cut in a style similar to the original. As it appears you find SAC guns interesting, email me at thomas.archer@charter.net and I'll send photos of the unique SAC prototype (I'm too dense to understand how to post photos directly to this forum).

Ross,
Send it to Bill G. He needs the practice. :p Just kiddin. Bill could weld tin foil together.

Here are the pics that Tom sent me of the awesome Syracuse. WoW!!

That is one good looking Syracuse! Prettiest one I've ever seen. I usually dont care too much for the shape of the frame, but this one overall is very pleasing to the eye!

Best,
Dustin