doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Should I send it back?

Okay, I received the Pieper. I have taken what you all have said said and this is the facts (and emotion),

1. It is black powder proofed, not nitro.
2. It has a preliminary proof mark, then an F with an arrow(?) pointing down to an R with what looks like a crown over it, then the traditional black powder proof mark.
3. It has been re-rust blued, action tightened up and re-chambered by a gunsmith named Stan Tabasco of Stockton, N.Y. Doug Turnbull did the case, charcoal bluing.
4. The gun is tight as can be.
5. The stock is in good shape, but needs to the checkering recut and refinishing. I can do that pretty well.

The cost was $1599.

So... if I reload it with the pressures down, do I have a gun I can shoot and have some fun with?

I don't have the load data from the seller (he has another just like this he uses himself). He is sending it next week.

Should I use black powder (or Trail boss only?) Would this be easier on the rifling?

Barnes claims their newest bullets are no harder on a barrel than any other bullet. I could just use those for the one or two shots it ever takes at game and use other bullets for the fun shooting. (Cheaper anyway).

And yeah, I geuss it is not "worth as much" becuase it has been altered, but I couldnt duplicate it for that price.

I don't think Ross Seyfried or Sherman Bell would be afraid to load for it and shoot it....

Should I keep it or send it back. I appreciate the knowledge of all those who contribute to my little escapade.

Jerry

Jerry it could be safe as can be. Personally I wouldn't shoot it. Depending upon which 9.3 round it was, a lot of metal could have been removed for the rechamber. I also think that the price is high for the gun you described. I shoot damascus guns all the time. I just don't think this was a good rechamber. Just my opinion.

Mike,
It is interesting that you are concerned with the chamber. I already did a quick cal on it (I am an engineer) the barrel is 2" Dia at the breech and 1.5" at the front. Stress is relatively low in the barrel wall. with a 40,000 psi load, stress in the walls would be under 9000 psi. 40,000 psi may be too high of a load to use in it.

I am more concerned about the action and the locking mechanism.

Any more thoughts.

Jerry

Are there guns out there in that price range? All I can seem to find start at about $2500.

There is a 12ga 38 X 55 on GA for that now.

I agree that it would have been smarter to rechamber it to 375 flange (not the magnum)

Jerry i see Belgian cape guns quite often for around $1500. I can't comment on the action as I haven't seen it. Does it have a Greener crossbolt, how many methods of locking does it have?

look at these.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=113550219

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=113248658

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100057670&string=act=adv quite nice

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100033279&string=act=adv

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100016754&string=act=adv

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100051330&string=act=adv

Another one.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8848003

Gerald:

I shoot the .375 Flanged(2 1/2") a good bit thru an English double regulated for 270 grains and I have found the Woodleigh bullet to work best. From memory I think the velocity to be around 1900 ft/s and just a guess that the max pressure is somewhere near 38K psi. I also think to recall Elmer Keith shot a 0.375 Flanged in an oval bore and gave something close to 2100 ft/s but I bet the pressure was a might bit high. A "F" on an Austro-Hungarian would mean Foreign but this is a Pieper. I'd like to see a pic of the marks if possible.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jerry:

Did the seller say why the rechambering was done? Was it because the chamber was badly pitted, or because he couldn't get brass for it? If the former, the correct solution would have been to sleeve the chamber. If the latter, he couldn't have made a worse choice.

Have you slugged the bore? If it was originally a 9.3, I wouldn't have thought the groove diameter would have been .375" - more like .364" - .367". Rechambered to a .375, I had assumed it was originally a .38-55, not a 9.3. I would suggest that you do nothing until you determine what groove diameter is.

This gun is 110 plus years old, and was originally chambered and proved for a black powder 9.3 - in other words maybe 25,000 PSI, tops. Max pressure for a .38-55 is 30,000 CUP, and .375 2 1/2" Flanged is 31,900 PSI. The .375 Magnum is 62,000 PSI. It's now a .375 Magnum without benefit of re-proof. It goes without saying that pulling the trigger on a factory round of the cartridge it's chambered for now would be nuts - and that's the point. Just because the seller is willing to do something irresponsible (sell a weapon that is clearly unsafe for the cartridge that he's modified it to take) doesn't make it worth $1,500. I'll put it this way - if this piece were mine, and I got tired of it, I see two options to get rid of it responsibly. Either correct the problem by sleeving the chamber to a suitable, safe caliber (more $), or render it inoperable and sell it as a wall-hanger. Could you figure out how to shoot it safely as is? Maybe, but even if you could, that doesn't change the status of what it is. I see this piece as a wall-hanger only, worth wall-hanger money, a far cry from $1,500.

As to the mono-metal bullet issue, I wouldn't fire them in any double rifle, or cape gun, that I cared about, let alone one of that age. Been there, done that.

CIP MAP (Max Average Pressure) for the .375 2 1/2" NE is 2200 BAR/31,900 PSI.

Mike and 400,
Besides the bottom lugs, it has an extension at the to[ that locks into the breach, similar to an LC Smith type.

It does have a 9.2 on the rifle barrel, could this have been the original caliber?

I think I need to ask the seller a bit more background about the gun.

By the way, non- of the s/s cape guns you showed me look anything like this gun. I have pictures, but I can't remember how to post them. This gun looks "more Modern" .

Just a side question,
400 where did you get 62,000 psi for the "flanged" H & H mag. John Taylor in his book list it below the belted version at 17 tons pressure.

About the marks. The "arrow" is a perron, proof of the breeching system. The R with crown is a rifled barrel over 8mm used since 1897. The F could be a date code or the inspector's mark. Either would date the proof to about 1927. The 9.2 is the bore in mm.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

Pieper made a lot of proprietary cartridges. This could well have been chambered for an obsolete Pieper round for which there is no brass.

Send it back.

Mike posted some nice guns. I like this one that he posted:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100057670&string=act=adv

Pete

400 Nitro Express:

Thanks for the correction. I knew the pressure for the Cordite round was low, but didn't realize the pressure was around 31k psi.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey sent me pictures of the gun. It dates 1898-1924.
No Greener cross bolt.

Pete

Jerry:

The "17 tons" is the long out of use bolt thrust standard derived in base-crusher guns. It isn't chamber pressure. Current standard for the Flanged Magnum's chamber pressure is 3250 BAR/47,137 PSI. Still way over the top. The rimless Magnum is 62,000.

Also, Taylor had his data wrong on this one. Original standard for the .375 Flanged Magnum was 18 tons, not 17.

400,
Taylor listed the heavy bullet loads at 18 tons, not the 235 gr. He did have a ? mark in his book on that load.

Thanks for the education on how older guns measured pressure.

Jerry

I found out the rifle was originally a 9.5 x 57 and the salesman (I haven't talked to the owner) thought it had a nitro proof on it, could I be missing it?

Well, at least 9.5mm is nominally .375" diameter. I'd still slug the bore. If it was a 9.5X57, rechambering doesn't make sense, unless the chamber was ruined to begin with.

Once again on memory, which wasn't too good regarding 375 Nitro pressure, I recall that the 9.5X57 was a Mannlicher-Schoenauer or something of the like and was the same or all but the same as the 375 Rimless Nitro Express(I think I have some ammo).

Send it back if it has been altered.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jerry it sounds like you really want to keep the gun. All of the responses have said send it back or don't shoot it. All that we can say is what we'd do if it was us. You have to make the decision. Good luck.

Just get rid of that out of proof Belgian clunker.

Jerry what did you end up doing?

Mike,
The gun was in great shape. Locked up tight, shot accurate.
I felt like a kid with a .22 when I took it out to shot it. I figure I'll just have to keep the .375 loads in the 2500 fps range and it should serve me well.

After shooting it, I couldn't part with it.
Also...
Truth is, the slug loads recoiled more than the .375 loads.

Now I just have to figure out how to load a non-toxic slug load for use in CA condor country.

Jerry