doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Army & Navy CSL, and 2 1/2" Chamber questions

So I have inherited an Army & Navy C.S.L. 12 Gauge.

I had it buried in the safe for a while, waiting for the day that I either came up with some 2 1/2" shells, or got off me arse and dug up a recipe and loaded some.

So I'm wiping it down, oiling it, and looking down the bores from each end. For a lark, I drop a fired and deprimed 2 3/4" Win AA hull that I had on hand into the chamber. Thunk. All the way in. Wasn't that strange. So I root around my shop and come up with a nice clean bit of aluminum rod. Slide that into the chamber till it stops. Pull it out. compare to the hull (2 3/4"). Just a little longer than the hull.

"Hmm" sez I. Clearly marked 2 1/2". Grandfather is long gone (this gun was apparently a gift to him, when he turned 19, in 1919. Not sure from whom). My father also is passed away and not answering calls on the crystal ball :).

I'm trying to figure out if the stock chamber would have been as long as this, or if it is most likely that the chamber has had a reamer dropped into it at some point. This is something I was unwilling to do, but will happily take advantage of, if it is already done.

I cannot see any difference in the surface textures in the area of the forcing cone (which is quite steep and clear) that would suggest that it was not original, but it could have been carried out a fair while ago, too.

Can any of you kind gents provide me with the dimensions for a chamber length gauge? Or at least tell me where I am supposed to measure from? It seems obvious that I should be measuring from the very beginning of the forcing cone, but I have seen enough obvious things that were the wrong thing, that I wish some confirmation and/or advice.

Further to the Army & Navy topic, can any of you gents suggest to me who may have been the maker of this gun?




The A&N serial number is 683XX, while there seems to be another set of numbers marked about some of the internal parts, which is 1132XX. The most readily spotted of the "other" numbers is on the forend lug, also marked with an arrow cipher.

I'd be quite pleased to hear what you think.

I figure that it rates as a good grade, though probably not nearly a "Best" grade gun. It has seen quite a bit of use, probably some abuse, and in spite of all that, still has some case color in spots out of the way of hands and fingers.
One of the triggers has been silver soldered back to function, and it appears to have been savaged at one or more times, by an unsympathetic hand with a screwdriver.

If the chamber gages out at 2 3/4", it may very well see some field time for grouse! Otherwise, I would just as soon tuck it back away and await some more appropriate shells.

Thanks!

Cheers
Trev

Trev, I'd guess the gun is based on the Webley & Scott "Proprietary." A photo of the top of the gun would help clear that question up. The loop number looks like a W&S number from about that time frame. You can easily clear up these questions by buying the original sales records from Glasgow University Custodian of Archives.

As you are a reloader, you can easily make low pressure loads in 2 3/4" cases. Dig out a loading manual and find 7/8 oz to 1 oz loads that go about 1100 feet per second and have a chamber pressure of 5500 - 7500 psi. The low pressure will be kind to the metal parts and the low recoil will be kind the the 90 year old wood and to you. It is quite well established that low pressure 2 3/4" reloads don't have much pressure increase in 2 1/2" chambers. Many of us who shoot such guns regularly use this approach. Even if your gun had been rechmbered 2 3/4", it would not be suitable for USA - SAAMI standard loads as they are too high pressure. There are also plenty of factory specialty loads available via e-commerce and shipped to your door. Do not shoot loads of unknown pressure!!

The easy way to measure chamber length is to hold the barrels up towards a light source. you should see a very distinct shadow where the chamber meets the forcing cone. Slide a steel rule into the chamber until you see it touch the shadow. Read depth off rule. The depth measuring rod of a sliding caliper works well used in the same fashion as the rule above.

I doubt that the chamber have been lengthened

The gun is typical of Webley-bult Army & Navy boxlocks. It is not a high-quality gun but will be properly constructed from good materials.

What do the proof marks tell you about the chamber length?

Teh US is full of guns with extended chambers - I saw a Purdey pigeon gun on my last visit - extended to 3" (unknown to the owner) from the original 2 1/2". It may not be an issue there but it makes the gun illegal to sell in the UK unless and untill it has been re-proofed.


The proof marks will tell the original dimensions - post a photo of the barrel flats if you can.

The proofs are clearly marked as 2 1/2", Nitro, etc.

I'll see if I have a picture on my box at home, and if not, will see to taking one and getting it up.

After I posted, I bodged up an expander to hold the crimp wide open on the hull I was playing with, in order to see if it would hang up on the beginning of the forcing cone taper, and it slid fully home without any pressure required, so one way or another, it seems that it will clear the 2 3/4" hull. By how much, I would like to determine.

One fellow I spoke to thought the answer to everythng was to drop a long forcing cone reamer into it. I have not been back to his place. I am not very interested in modifying the gun, when I can modify the shells to suit.

Cheers
Trev

I think your approach is correct. I have on old Hellis which appears to have longish chambers also. Don't know why that is the case. I had the chambers on a Fox lengthened and I'm sorry I did. The data does suggest very little pressure rise when firing a 2 3/4 cartridge in a 2 1/2 chamber. Removing steel to relieve the very modest pressure rise seems like a bad idea since removal reduces its capacity to contain pressure. Much better to reload to modest pressures and leave the chamber alone. My 2 cents. Looks like a nice family keepsake to shoot and enjoy.

Trev, if "2 1/2" is marked on the barrel flats and if your grandfather received the gun in 1919, there's something a bit odd afoot. Brit proof rules did not require that the chamber length be stamped on the gun (as long as it was the standard 2 1/2") until 1925. What you should find is a shot charge (probably 1 1/8 oz). If you find the word "Maximum", that would make the gun even older (1896-1904). But as mentioned above, simply by providing the serial number, you can get more information from Glasgow University. For a fee, you can even get the order book sheet listing your gun, original buyer, date, who made it, etc.

Not this gun.

This gun was built and finished by Webley & Scott. Hard to say which specific model without a photo of the top of the action. Engraving is Webley's style. Army & Navy's number of 68,3XX is actually quite a late number for them, and would be in volume 10 of their records, which covers the period 1927-1935. The number 113,2XX is Webley's serial number, and is from 1929. The proof marks include the chamber length mark (2 1/2") introduced by new rules of proof in 1925. A & N's records will probably show 1929 or 1930. You can request a copy of the ledger page for this gun. Email the Archivist at the University of Glasgow. They will provide the year the gun was sold and who it was sold to free via email. If you want hard copy of the ledger, they charge 25 GBP, IIRC. Their records will include both of the numbers mentioned above, date of order, date of sale, the make profit code, name of buyer, who built the gun, etc. It's a neat thing to have, especially if the gun has been handed down in the family.

Another potential way to check the date, if your gun was proved in Birmingham (the quick check is the view mark on the flats. Birmingham's is a crown over BV, London's is a crown over V), it should bear a date code. This is a small mark on the flats consisting of a pair of crossed swords with a letter in the 12 o'clock angle and a numeral in the 6 o'clock angle. The letter is the date code. If it was proved in London, there will be no date code. Your gun was built and finished in Birmingham. That doesn't mean it was proved there. Webley had many thousands of double guns proved in London.

Wow, great info!

Off the top of my head, I beleive that the proof is Crown BV, along with, IIRC, two other marks with the crown present.
It is marked 1 1/8, as well.

I'll post pictures this evening!

The dates being off as much as that, does not surprise me at all. Such is the hazard of relying on word of mouth to get sorted on what happened over such time.

At one point, before my time, my father was quite an avid bird hunter, making a pilgrimage of sorts, each year, out to Saskatchewan or Alberta to hunt ducks, and he had an Irish Setter that he used as his bird dog. By the time us kids were well enough established in the yard, the dog was getting old, and the time was taken up with all those things in life that get in the way of getting out.

Cheers
Trev

Looking forward to photos of the proofmarks. If it has both 2 1/2" and 1 1/8 oz stamped on the flats, it dates from the 1925-54 period, unless there was a reproof somewhere along the line.

And as best I can tell from the photos, now that I look closely, your gun appears to be the same model as my A&N pair: "Anson" Hammerless Ejector. Engraving certainly matches. Can't tell from the photos. Does yours have a Greener crossbolt? The Anson sold for 25 pounds in 1933-34. Mine were made in 1933, and are about 200 numbers later than yours by SN.

Trev, I agree with everything said so far by the others. Do consider loading regular 2 3/4" hulls at low pressure and blast away. Forcing cones: I've had some lengthened and some are original, I'm rather ambivilent about it.

Here's the e-mail address for the Duty Archivist in Glasgow: dutyarch@archives.gla.ac.uk . I have found them to be very polite and responsive.