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This is probably a dumb question that I have simply not thought through long enough to figure out the answer for myself, but here goes.

A standard shell, say a 12 gauge, still has a standard shell diameter today, and a 12 bore barrel at one time had a defined standard inside diameter, and chokes were measured in terms of constriction from the bore diameter, which they still are today.

But the inside diameters of barrels from different manufacturers today vary a fair amount for any given standard gauge, plus some manufactures additionally overbore their barrels to, in theory, reduce recoil by reducing velocity. So I guess you might conceivably end up shooting a 12 gauge shell in a 13+ bore barrel. Yet it’s choke is still determined from constriction to this oversized-for-gauge barrel.

Doesn’t this make the definition and measurement of choke as the constriction from the actual barrel I.D. now fairly meaningless? Wouldn’t it make more sense now to re-define the choke size on any 12 gauge barrel as the inside diameter of the last 1 ½ - 2 “ of barrel, and wouldn’t this be a better predictor of what to expect in pattern? It seems hard to believe that the same amount of diameter reduction on two widely differing barrel diameters would both meet the practical desire of specified choke size which is percentage of pellets within the measuring circle for that shot load.

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Yes and No

If you are of the opinion that choke is measured in constriction then it really doesn't matter what the bore dia. is. The shot column will fill out to whatever bore dia you have. So the constriction will still work.
But in my opinion the actual choke constriction means nothing.
What matters is how the gun puts a certain load on the pattering board. Example Gun A might pattern a given load at 70% at 40yds but only have .020 of constriction but gun B but may have to have .045 of constriction to do the same thing.
So constriction is only a starting point, actual patterning is the only answer.


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I believe it the old days it was more of pellet count on paper than 20 or 30 points of choke.Fourty was concidered full once we started thinking more in thousands than pellet count.Now many think of 30 points as full which was the old I/M. Barrel stamping gives some idea to the average hunter and they probably hold the stamping as true but we know the pellet size and speed and hardness and many other factors realy tell what choke you are getting from your gun no matter what its stamped.I remember many choke makers twenty years ago made chokes and said something like these fit Winchesters. Now if the man buying the choke didn't know his older tubed 101 field had a 6thou. different bore than his 101 Sporter and figured it was a good deal that one set fit both guns he might just be suprized at different results from the same tube in his two guns.I remember Rhino was one of the first to ask the buying what gun he was shooting in a brand as they knew bore diameter was different and it mattered and for sure with the then choke changeing every station sporting shooters.
Basicly pelltet count is the only way to realy know what your gun is shooting with a given load at a given place at a given time of year.If you evr got to shoot the fifty at fity shoot at Delta Junction your gun did not pattern the same on that day as it did in the summer with the same targets. No it wasn't fifty birds on your fifteth birthday it was fifty at fifty below and I ain't talking sea level. The shoot never realy took off,go figure.

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I'm not buying that a modern gun of quality manufacturing reputation will have drastically different effective choke results vs. another of similar quality shooting the same ammo when constrictions are identical. Guns made by the same maker will have same/similar patterns for the same choke constriction unless something is amiss in the bore/choke.

If it weren't so, buying a gun or Briley chokes by constiction would be meaningless.

I dunno about you guys, but all the guns I've patterned gave pretty much expected patterns for their respective constrictions.

I'm guessing the development of chokes pursued the maximum density patterns that could be achieved, then lessor constrictions were made available.

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We need just remember back twenty years ago when a maker would sell field guns with a standard .729 bore and high dollor target guns with bores up to .745 in which case yes Briley tubes interchanged between the same makers guns were worthless as far as tube marking went.Thats also why Briley was more than happy to make tubes just for your gun so you got what you thought you were getting.

Chuck H #101380 07/06/08 05:42 PM
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[quote=Chuck H I dunno about you guys, but all the guns I've patterned gave pretty much expected patterns for their respective constrictions.[/quote]

Me too, and I have spent a lot of time hanging around the patterning board behind a major after market choke tube shop for the last several years. So predictable, in fact, that the owner can predict with great reliability what size shot will give a certain pattern out of his chokes and any commonly made gun.


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I've experienced the effect of the rarified air at a 9000 ft trap shoot where a skeet choke would break birds out 40-50 yrds. But that effect applies to all chokes.

If constriction is meaningless, guns should be bought with the maximum choke safe to shoot and the shooter should have them openned to his desired effect. That ain't the case cause a .010 choke performance in a modern well built gun will provide pretty predicatble results. Not 'count the pellets, it's a IC by the book' results with all loads, but a result that can be reasonably predicted with most ammo.

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Close is good enough for most shotgunning. I always figure if I miss a bird its by at least 18" because if I shot correctly the bird would have been centered in a 36" circle of shot.Shotguns, horseshoes and hand gernades

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And Det Cord and C-4- and the Claymores facing outwards- sorta like telling the guys laying sod "Green side Up- brown goes down"!! All my shotguns are Full choked (I guess) except the 20 ga. M12 I got on my 12th. birthday- that's marked Mod.- I have NEVER pattern tested any of the guns, just shot 'em and watched the birds drop (most of the time) BUT- I am basically a pass shooter (occasional decoying) on mallards and Canadas, and where we hunt fezzants in SD and MT there's always a heavy wind and the birds flush at range. If I were a serious clays shooter, or a upland hunter (grouse, quail, woodcock) then I'd go for an Imp. Cyl. or Imp. Cyl. and Mod. in a double gun. I love to rake down what the Brits call 'Archangels' soaring barn pigeons- aka- airborne shitwagons- and to see incoming crows disappear in a ball of black feathers- and the tight chokes and AA reloads do that- but as they say- 'different courses for different horses'!!

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With modern reloading you can make just about any choke do what you want it to do.If you read the shell boxes you can do about the same thing with store bought shells.Like I said whats stamped on the barrel or tube is close enough for most all shooting.I'm also saying whats stamped ain't fact untill its proven and there is only one way to do that and counting pellets is the way.If you get the desired results with what you have then facts don't matter what ever they are as your hitting what you shoot at.

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90% of my shooting is not limited by my choke but my ability. Under extreme conditions I do pattern guns with special loads to see which load gives me the best pattern.

But choke selection is not that big of a deal if you pratice range discipline. I learned that from my father the first day I hunted. Learn what range you are looking at and restrict yourself to high percentage shots, not sky busting, game crippling and game wasting shots. I watched him at age 90 set "weed markers "" 25 yards out from his spot and then he watched multiple birds fly across his field of fire to see what they looked like at his selected kill zone. Then he loaded up and killed a limit of 15 birds with 23 shells all with a Fox AE 16 I lent him. He never asked about chokes, loads or velocity. Not bad for an old guy. I hope I can go hunting at his age. Heck just being able to go and watch my sons and grandkids shoot would be enough for me at 90.

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Many good points made here. That being said, what's stamped on the barrel can be misleading. For example, I have an Ithaca NID 20ga marked 2 and 4 (M/F) . . . except my bore and choke gauge tells me that it has no choke in the R barrel, mid-teens in the L. So C/M, which is fine with me--but clearly tampered with somewhere along the line.

Then there's also the issue that different manufacturers use different criteria for chokes. I have a 20ga Bernardelli that's stamped 4 stars and 2 stars, which by Italian choke markings should mean IC/IM. Bore constrictions are .011/.029, which is more like skeet 2/extra full. The old Belgian Brownings are notorious for having more constriction for the choke marked on the barrel than did most contemporary shotguns. Which is why it's always good to measure.

And older guns, in general, tended to have more constriction for whatever was marked on the barrels than new ones. That's because improved shotshell technology (plastic wads etc) produces tighter patterns in general than the old card/fiber overshot wads. So you shouldn't need as much constriction to produce that standard full choke pattern of 70% at 40 yards than your granddad did. Assuming high quality modern shells vs the best available 60 years ago.

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Choke, we don't need no stinkin' choke. Some of my guns are cylinder bored. It's surprising how much better shot I am when I shoot them...Geo

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Why is it that many European esp. Sauer's have what are considered extra full chokes? I have a box lock that measures .680 in the left and .685 in the right. Bore diameter at 9 inches is .730. Was it their hunting circumstance and/or did they know more about different loads than the English or Americans at the time?


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Does a specific degree of choke say .040 equal the same performance for all gauges, cartridge types, etc ?

Obviously no as the variables between cartridges and bores are significant as well.

Does the constriction of choke have value and meaning?

Undoubtedly yes.

That said the only way to know how a specific barrel constriction performs with a particular cartridge loading is to pattern your gun and conduct an analysis of the a number of patterns (say 5-8 test patterns)

The reality is most of us have patterned a load on a couple of targets, but most of us have not repeatedly tested a number of loads and conducted disciplined analysis because it is a pain.

I have in the past tested loads, but never to the highly disciplined degree required to provide give near unimpeachable and reliably solid answers.

One comment on 40 points of constriction in 12 gauge vs 40 points in smaller gauges. I believe you must think of constriction in terms of a percentage reduction in size of the bore. This is why 40 points in a 16 ga provides greater relative choking than it does in 12 ga. Because the effect is linked to a percentage of reduction 40 points in a over-bored 12 ga say .740 bore vs 40 points in a 13 bored (.710) 12 ga is a much greater percentage reduction in bore and therefore

Reference Geo's comment on cylinder, I find little to no choke works if you engage targets rapidly when they are close, but as I get older and slower more choke is better and for distant shooting it goes without saying. On preserve birds I often shoot cylinder in the first barrel as I get close shots(sub 15 yards)


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I have a book at home entitled "Olly". It is about the Earl De Grey/Marquess of Ripon. Supposed to have been England's best shot back in the time of the great shoots. Turned out that when examined, his guns were cylinder bored. That was way before plastic shot collars...Geo

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Parkers were ordered with specific pellet counts & choked to order. Its my guess other pre WW 2 SxS guns the same. No doubt someone on the forum can tell us when the current choke names were first used. Its useful to have a name on chokes but they are only indicators. Actual pattern can be different according to the load

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I've been patterning a 12 ga. cylinder barrel lately and here's 1 1/8 oz. of 6's at 25 yards (30" circle). I'm pretty sure I could get a few more yards of killing out of it on pheasants, and a bird taken at 15-20 yards with it will be nailed pretty hard. I've never had a gun with a straight cylinder first barrel and I'm liking what I see. I do hunt with pointing dogs.


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Originally Posted By: DRM
Doesn’t this make the definition and measurement of choke as the constriction from the actual barrel I.D. now fairly meaningless? Wouldn’t it make more sense now to re-define the choke size on any 12 gauge barrel as the inside diameter of the last 1 ½ - 2 “ of barrel, and wouldn’t this be a better predictor of what to expect in pattern? It seems hard to believe that the same amount of diameter reduction on two widely differing barrel diameters would both meet the practical desire of specified choke size which is percentage of pellets within the measuring circle for that shot load.


No, it is not meaningless. The I.D. of the last 1-2 inches of a barrel IS meaningless, as far as predicting patterns, if you don't know the bore diameter. The same amount of diameter reduction doesn't even mean two barrels of identical bore size will pattern the same, but it IS a pretty darn good predictor.

And Geo., please don't go down that road called "Choke Is Obsolete". grin

SRH

Last edited by Stan; 07/11/16 06:40 PM. Reason: pore grammer

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.040" constriction in a standard 12 gauge gives about 11% bore reduction. The more modern .030" constriction for full choke with modern shells gives about an 8% reduction. You can figure these percentages for any size you desire, just remember they are figured from the diameter Sq'd thus for a 20 gauge using modern 8% constriction √(.615 x 92%)=.590" or .025" constriction.

Incidentally for the original poster a 13 gauge bore is undersized for a 12 an 11 gauge is overbore.


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Chokes and patterns are a very fluid thing. Hard shot tightens up a pattern, larger shot can as well. Higher velocity has a general opening effect by one of my doubles got better the faster the load until about 1275fps, at which point I stopped because recoil was not very pleasant. Ten different loads might give you patterns from one end of the spectrum to the other. Test to find out for sure.

When lead shot was OK for ducks and geese I loaded and tested a lot of buffered and non buffered loads and found a lot of great loads to use. None of them much use these days but one thing I took away from it was that inside 25 yards I could kill any geese or duck with a Skeet gun with almost certainty with the right load. A combination of I/C or Skeet and Full would be a very versatile double on the marsh. In fact my first duck gun was a 28 Ga. Model 12 with a tight Skeet choke. I killed just over 50% of the ducks I shot with it the first year. All with a 1 ounce load of number 6's out of a blind on our creek. Most shots were 20 yards and I had eyes of youth and reflexes of a young teenager. At least I still have the gun. smile

To assume any set number of constrictions will give you a certain pattern is just useless to me. If you want to know shoot patterns. Change loads and see what happens. You might find a load that you love or find it makes very little difference. I do know some loads which looked great on paper never killed game in they way I expected. I figured it was either operator error or the shot string was very long and a large part of the pattern missed the target. More likely operator error.

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Originally Posted By: Stan
... And Geo., please don't go down that road called "Choke Is Obsolete". grin SRH


Don't worry about me Stan, I won't go over to the dark side. Choke is required for turkeys, waterfowl, and latter season doves. I use it. 1st season doves, bobwhite quail and practically everything else I shoot at, not so much...Geo

If I lived out West it would be a different story.

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Isn't it also true that guns were tighter choked years ago as marked since they were using ammo before the invention of the plastic shot cup/wad. So an older gun marked Mod. with modern ammo with a plastic wad will pattern closer to a modern full choked gun

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Originally Posted By: Woody402
Isn't it also true that guns were tighter choked years ago as marked since they were using ammo before the invention of the plastic shot cup/wad. So an older gun marked Mod. with modern ammo with a plastic wad will pattern closer to a modern full choked gun


Usually so, yes.

SRH


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While I shoot 16 ga cylinder and .005 over a dog at preserve shooting on wild upland birds its .005 & .010, for duck .015 & .025

Geo while I am sympathetic to more open chokes After going a season of cylinder cylinder I found for me it did not work.

While I agree that many go overchoking I think the other extreme is misguided for most. At both end of the spectrum there will be shooters who do well, but most need a middle path.


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Cylinder is very useful for a lot of upland hunting over good dogs. Quail as well as grouse and woodcock (you may need more for late season grouse) come to mind. First barrel for pheasants . . . Dave, I agree that you don't need much choke--again, with good dogs--unless you're hunting birds that are unusually spooky. Cylinder is likely OK even for prairie grouse, early in the season. Later, when they're mostly in big bunches and hard to approach, you do need more.

Cylinder won't do everything, for sure, but it will do a lot. The late Bob Brister was clearly a fan: " . . . I do know that at 25 yards, a pure-cylinder barrel will throw one of the deadliest game-getting patterns you ever looked at, more efficient at that yardage than a full-choke barrel at 50 yards."

Re Lord Ripon, back in his day, driven birds were not long-range targets. (Nor are they today, unless you go to one of the places that specializes in ultra-high birds.) I had the pleasure of shooting driven next to a gentleman who was a very fine shot. He was shooting a long-barreled OU (more and more common these days on driven shoots). I asked him what chokes he was using. "Hardly any," he replied. Where I've shot driven, a 40 yard bird is unusually high, and you're a real hero if you make many of those shots. Most birds are well within 30 yards. They're challenging for most of us on this side of the pond (maybe less so for guys who do more dove and/or waterfowl shooting) because we're not used to that kind of shooting at pheasants. And the red grouse of Scotland and northern England are, in general, even lower. They're difficult for reasons other than range.

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When that rich relative, that I know nothing about, passes and leaves me "comfortable" I'm going to do the driven grouse deal, Larry. Until then, it's just a dream. But, I haven't given up hope.

SRH


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I think the thing to know about cyl choke is that it usually shoots really good patterns, but the shot disperses quickly. You need to have the experience to judge the effective range of the gun you are shooting. Beyond its effective range cyl bore becomes an unsportsmanlike game wounding proposition..Geo

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Ya, in my case I'll use this 12 gauge Cyl/IC shotgun for early pheasants and ruffed grouse. I've got pointing dogs taught by the school of wild birds, so the vast majority of these shots are under 30 yards, and mostly under 25. I can't imagine a better choke than Cylinder for these shots. I've had MORE trouble lately missing close birds because I don't want to ruin them, and then miss the head shot, or ride them out which isn't always a good option in heavy cover. Fortunately, like any good boy scout I have another 5 upland shotguns to fall back on if I need more choke.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Erickson
I've been patterning a 12 ga. cylinder barrel lately and here's 1 1/8 oz. of 6's at 25 yards (30" circle). I'm pretty sure I could get a few more yards of killing out of it on pheasants, and a bird taken at 15-20 yards with it will be nailed pretty hard. I've never had a gun with a straight cylinder first barrel and I'm liking what I see. I do hunt with pointing dogs.



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It's the crabby neighbor's door. He was at work. wink

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What constitutes a "good" pattern and how do you measure it? "Even/uniform" distribution does not happen in patterns, BTW.

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I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo


So, if the above is good, what is "better?"

Jones found you must shoot not less than 10 patterns per load-gun to obtain statistically reliable data. Any one who hasn't read "Sporting Shotgun Performance" should.

DDA

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Originally Posted By: Rocketman
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo


So, if the above is good, what is "better?"

...DDA


How dead do you want'em?...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Rocketman
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo


So, if the above is good, what is "better?"

Jones found you must shoot not less than 10 patterns per load-gun to obtain statistically reliable data. Any one who hasn't read "Sporting Shotgun Performance" should.

DDA


Don, if he's still promoting the idea that there are a lot of single pellet breaks at skeet, I think a lot of people would question the statistical reliability of whatever data supports it.

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My idea of a good pattern is one that delivers what I expect at ranges I expect to shoot.

Honest I have a 14 inch round plywood disk with a 2 inch hole centered. 14 inches because my lathe will chuck 14 inches, easy to turn the disk, and its small enough to draw circles on common construction paper.

Run a series of patterns from very close to further than I expect to shoot. 7/8 oz 12 clays load with 7 1/2 have patterned each barrel on my main gun every 10 yards from 10 to 60 yards. Tells me I need a spreader if real close and real long shots better put in a 1 oz load.

2 7/8 10 G guns with 1 1/8 & 1 1/4 skip the close ones and take it out to 70 yards. Sub Gauge stop at 40 yards. Guns I hunt with do the same with larger shot.

Gives you a good idea of what the gun and load will do actual targets . Don't count anything just look at the holes , not hard to judge good from not good enough. If the gun and load won't put a lot of pellets on a 14 inch target it's not going to break clays or kill birds very well.

Agree extensive testing is better but it's a lot of trouble and if you don't test at actual target distances inconclusive .

Boats

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I have all the respect in the world for Don, and for his endless striving to try to encourage armchair patterning experts to get more scientific in their evaluations, and discussions of same. It is people like him who help to keep us grounded .

But ........ as much as I agree with Don about evaluating patterns, I have to say something. I don't mean this to be belittling of scientific research and data, in any way, but there is just so much help it can provide you in the effort to raise your shell to bird average. This may sound harsh ..... but, show me a shooter who is obsessed with evaluating patterns and I will show you a so-so clay or game shot. Brister may have been the exception, I never knew him. I have a lot of respect for him, but I've never met anybody like him. I have been friends with many excellent shotgunners, some of whom are among the best in the world at sporting clays and live pigeons. None of them, I mean none, have ever spent any significant time patterning and evaluating patterns. They shoot quality ammunition, quality guns with good chokes, and they SHOOT, a lot. They do not obsess over chokes, patterns or loads. If the combination they are using breaks birds well, and they cannot see any obvious failures, they just keep shooting.

I know from experience that you can overthink shotgunning. As much as I enjoy occasional patterning of new loads, I don't obsess over them. I don't use screw in chokes in my primary comp gun. It has fixed chokes at .020" and .020". I KNOW that I should benefit from good spreaders on very close stuff, but it doesn't work out that way. The more I think about "helping" my shooting with open chokes, spreaders, etc., the worse I shoot. You wanna kill more birds with less shells? SHOOT MORE!!!!! Pattern your gun/load to make sure it is not shooting a terribly patchy pattern, then fugettaboutit, and just shoot more. Patterning is much more useful for visually showing you what the maximum range is at which you should shoot a bird or clay, with a choke/load combination, than it is for determining which load may give you a percentage point or two more breaks, IMO.

Talking about all this is entertaining and helps pass those days and nights when we can't get out and shoot, but for goodness sakes don't think it will make you a better shot. Only shooting will do that. Lots of shooting.

Rant over.

SRH


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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Originally Posted By: Rocketman
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo


So, if the above is good, what is "better?"

...DDA


How dead do you want'em?...Geo


I've nothing against your experience/intuitive judgement of patterns. But, I'm looking for something we can measure and scale from poor to good. Until we have/use such a measure, discussions such as this, while fun, don't reach any conclusion of particular value. I think it a crying shame more use of the treasure trove of data given us by Jones is not being more utilized.

Again, no offense intended; all good fun.

DDA

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I think more in terms of "useful" patterns, and my examples are purely involving hunting chokes. or lack of it. It's OK to grind up clays at 23 yards with a tight choke, but that fat rooster pheasant or ruffed grouse is going to be destroyed if you center it, and you can't always ride them out, especially grouse. No head games with a wide-open choke in that situation, just shoot.

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Don, if he's still promoting the idea that there are a lot of single pellet breaks at skeet, I think a lot of people would question the statistical reliability of whatever data supports it.

Larry, it is unreasonable to try to impeach the patterning data based on the extension of it to performance prediction. The main body of his work tells you how a pattern "IS," and how various of the factors affect that "IS." His data is reliable enough that anyone repeating his work will arrive at similar conclusions. His data is extensive enough that most of the "old shooter's tales" are explored.

Extending pattern "IS" to performance in terms of broken clay or dead bird is very difficult. For me, his work is by far and away the best to date. Perhaps some day we will have a standard definition of what it takes to be some % sure of what is required to break a clay.

DDA

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Originally Posted By: Stan
I have all the respect in the world for Don, and for his endless striving to try to encourage armchair patterning experts to get more scientific in their evaluations, and discussions of same. It is people like him who help to keep us grounded . Thank you for the kind words. Stan. Yes, my position exactly.

But ........ as much as I agree with Don about evaluating patterns, I have to say something. I don't mean this to be belittling of scientific research and data, in any way, but there is just so much help it can provide you in the effort to raise your shell to bird average. This may sound harsh ..... but, show me a shooter who is obsessed with evaluating patterns and I will show you a so-so clay or game shot. Brister may have been the exception, I never knew him. I have a lot of respect for him, but I've never met anybody like him. I have been friends with many excellent shotgunners, some of whom are among the best in the world at sporting clays and live pigeons. None of them, I mean none, have ever spent any significant time patterning and evaluating patterns. They shoot quality ammunition, quality guns with good chokes, and they SHOOT, a lot. They do not obsess over chokes, patterns or loads. If the combination they are using breaks birds well, and they cannot see any obvious failures, they just keep shooting. Stock dimensions, handling dimensions, choke selection, load selection, etc. can be no more effective than the shooter. A poor gun selection in the hands of a good shooter will likely be more effective than a good gun selection in the hands of a poor shooter. Nuttin' harsh about that --- just fact.

I know from experience that you can overthink shotgunning. As much as I enjoy occasional patterning of new loads, I don't obsess over them. I don't use screw in chokes in my primary comp gun. It has fixed chokes at .020" and .020". I KNOW that I should benefit from good spreaders on very close stuff, but it doesn't work out that way. The more I think about "helping" my shooting with open chokes, spreaders, etc., the worse I shoot. You wanna kill more birds with less shells? SHOOT MORE!!!!! Pattern your gun/load to make sure it is not shooting a terribly patchy pattern, then fugettaboutit, and just shoot more. Patterning is much more useful for visually showing you what the maximum range is at which you should shoot a bird or clay, with a choke/load combination, than it is for determining which load may give you a percentage point or two more breaks, IMO. Good shooters know that good loads in good guns will reliably shoot reliable patterns. They also know that if they center, truly center, the target in the pattern it can be broken to seemingly impossible distances regardless of choke.

Talking about all this is entertaining and helps pass those days and nights when we can't get out and shoot, but for goodness sakes don't think it will make you a better shot. Only shooting will do that. Lots of shooting. No gun/load will compensate for lack of shooting skill. The optimum gun/load for you will, however, make it easiest for you to achieve your maximum potential --- IMO.

Rant over. It was a good rant, one to be proud of!

SRH

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I've mentioned Mr. Winston in previous discussions dominated by opinion rather than fact. I will do so again in what is likely a vain hope that some of you will have sense enough to pay attention and appreciate the methodology and results of obtained data. Eyeball Analysts are welcome to be enlightened of course.

http://www.claytargettesting.com/index.html

have another day
Dr.WtS


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That's a great Website Wonko.

Thanks!



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Originally Posted By: Rocketman

Don, if he's still promoting the idea that there are a lot of single pellet breaks at skeet, I think a lot of people would question the statistical reliability of whatever data supports it.

Larry, it is unreasonable to try to impeach the patterning data based on the extension of it to performance prediction. The main body of his work tells you how a pattern "IS," and how various of the factors affect that "IS." His data is reliable enough that anyone repeating his work will arrive at similar conclusions. His data is extensive enough that most of the "old shooter's tales" are explored.

Extending pattern "IS" to performance in terms of broken clay or dead bird is very difficult. For me, his work is by far and away the best to date. Perhaps some day we will have a standard definition of what it takes to be some % sure of what is required to break a clay.

DDA


The problem, Don, is that Dr. Jones himself attempts to extend pattern "IS" to performance on clays, in specific reference to single pellet breaks at skeet. Which tells me that he needed to spend more time strolling around on skeet fields, collecting unbroken targets with one or more pellet strikes, in order to either confirm or question his theory.
Anyone who has done that quickly learns that there are a lot of skeet targets that survive a single pellet strike; sometimes even two strikes.

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Originally Posted By: Rocketman
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I call a good pattern one I couldn't throw a bird through out to the range I expect to shoot...Geo


So, if the above is good, what is "better?"

Jones found you must shoot not less than 10 patterns per load-gun to obtain statistically reliable data. Any one who hasn't read "Sporting Shotgun Performance" should.

DDA


Concur that patterning requires more than one pattern, not sure if ten is required for statistical consistency. While Jones set 10 as a number to shoot, I believe that it can be done with less, say 6-8, but it is definitely more than two or three, much less one


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[/quote]

The problem, Don, is that Dr. Jones himself attempts to extend pattern "IS" to performance on clays, in specific reference to single pellet breaks at skeet. An interesting topic that needs exploring. Surely you agree with that statement. We lack many/most of the variables that would factor into an answer. However, Jones gave us a bunch of information and direction for further investigation. The fact that Jones made some calculations based on what is known about patterns has nothing to do with how patterns "ARE."

Which tells me that he needed to spend more time strolling around on skeet fields, collecting unbroken targets with one or more pellet strikes, in order to either confirm or question his theory.
Anyone who has done that quickly learns that there are a lot of skeet targets that survive a single pellet strike; sometimes even two strikes. I'd like to think we can agree that understanding how patterns operate is a different topic from how many pellets at what energy hitting a target at what angle of impingement (etc. probably) are required to break clays. I'm fine with you feeling that Jones's single pellet break work can use further development (Jones was working on it last I heard). What I don't see is discounting his pattern work because you question his work on a different topic. [/quote]

DDA

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Quote:

Concur that patterning requires more than one pattern, not sure if ten is required for statistical consistency. While Jones set 10 as a number to shoot, I believe that it can be done with less, say 6-8, but it is definitely more than two or three, much less one


Jones picked 10 for statistical confidence. Shooting fewer reduces confidence. That doesn't mean the data is worthless, just lower confidence. Shotgun patterns are a lot more variable than has been generally recognized in the past. A three shot group from a rifle tells you something. A five shot group tells you more and ten tell the story pretty well.

Shooting patterns is not a problem. Analysis, meaningful analysis, is. Using Jones's Shotgun In-Sights pattern analysis reduces the effort required and increases the significance of the data. It makes the data collectible and comparable among experimenters.



DDA

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