doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Is original constriction definition of choke still appropriate?

90% of my shooting is not limited by my choke but my ability. Under extreme conditions I do pattern guns with special loads to see which load gives me the best pattern.

But choke selection is not that big of a deal if you pratice range discipline. I learned that from my father the first day I hunted. Learn what range you are looking at and restrict yourself to high percentage shots, not sky busting, game crippling and game wasting shots. I watched him at age 90 set "weed markers "" 25 yards out from his spot and then he watched multiple birds fly across his field of fire to see what they looked like at his selected kill zone. Then he loaded up and killed a limit of 15 birds with 23 shells all with a Fox AE 16 I lent him. He never asked about chokes, loads or velocity. Not bad for an old guy. I hope I can go hunting at his age. Heck just being able to go and watch my sons and grandkids shoot would be enough for me at 90.

Many good points made here. That being said, what's stamped on the barrel can be misleading. For example, I have an Ithaca NID 20ga marked 2 and 4 (M/F) . . . except my bore and choke gauge tells me that it has no choke in the R barrel, mid-teens in the L. So C/M, which is fine with me--but clearly tampered with somewhere along the line.

Then there's also the issue that different manufacturers use different criteria for chokes. I have a 20ga Bernardelli that's stamped 4 stars and 2 stars, which by Italian choke markings should mean IC/IM. Bore constrictions are .011/.029, which is more like skeet 2/extra full. The old Belgian Brownings are notorious for having more constriction for the choke marked on the barrel than did most contemporary shotguns. Which is why it's always good to measure.

And older guns, in general, tended to have more constriction for whatever was marked on the barrels than new ones. That's because improved shotshell technology (plastic wads etc) produces tighter patterns in general than the old card/fiber overshot wads. So you shouldn't need as much constriction to produce that standard full choke pattern of 70% at 40 yards than your granddad did. Assuming high quality modern shells vs the best available 60 years ago.

Choke, we don't need no stinkin' choke. Some of my guns are cylinder bored. It's surprising how much better shot I am when I shoot them...Geo

Why is it that many European esp. Sauer's have what are considered extra full chokes? I have a box lock that measures .680 in the left and .685 in the right. Bore diameter at 9 inches is .730. Was it their hunting circumstance and/or did they know more about different loads than the English or Americans at the time?

Does a specific degree of choke say .040 equal the same performance for all gauges, cartridge types, etc ?

Obviously no as the variables between cartridges and bores are significant as well.

Does the constriction of choke have value and meaning?

Undoubtedly yes.

That said the only way to know how a specific barrel constriction performs with a particular cartridge loading is to pattern your gun and conduct an analysis of the a number of patterns (say 5-8 test patterns)

The reality is most of us have patterned a load on a couple of targets, but most of us have not repeatedly tested a number of loads and conducted disciplined analysis because it is a pain.

I have in the past tested loads, but never to the highly disciplined degree required to provide give near unimpeachable and reliably solid answers.

One comment on 40 points of constriction in 12 gauge vs 40 points in smaller gauges. I believe you must think of constriction in terms of a percentage reduction in size of the bore. This is why 40 points in a 16 ga provides greater relative choking than it does in 12 ga. Because the effect is linked to a percentage of reduction 40 points in a over-bored 12 ga say .740 bore vs 40 points in a 13 bored (.710) 12 ga is a much greater percentage reduction in bore and therefore

Reference Geo's comment on cylinder, I find little to no choke works if you engage targets rapidly when they are close, but as I get older and slower more choke is better and for distant shooting it goes without saying. On preserve birds I often shoot cylinder in the first barrel as I get close shots(sub 15 yards)

I have a book at home entitled "Olly". It is about the Earl De Grey/Marquess of Ripon. Supposed to have been England's best shot back in the time of the great shoots. Turned out that when examined, his guns were cylinder bored. That was way before plastic shot collars...Geo

Parkers were ordered with specific pellet counts & choked to order. It�s my guess other pre WW 2 SxS guns the same. No doubt someone on the forum can tell us when the current choke names were first used. It�s useful to have a name on chokes but they are only indicators. Actual pattern can be different according to the load

Boats

I've been patterning a 12 ga. cylinder barrel lately and here's 1 1/8 oz. of 6's at 25 yards (30" circle). I'm pretty sure I could get a few more yards of killing out of it on pheasants, and a bird taken at 15-20 yards with it will be nailed pretty hard. I've never had a gun with a straight cylinder first barrel and I'm liking what I see. I do hunt with pointing dogs.

No, it is not meaningless. The I.D. of the last 1-2 inches of a barrel IS meaningless, as far as predicting patterns, if you don't know the bore diameter. The same amount of diameter reduction doesn't even mean two barrels of identical bore size will pattern the same, but it IS a pretty darn good predictor.

And Geo., please don't go down that road called "Choke Is Obsolete".

SRH

.040" constriction in a standard 12 gauge gives about 11% bore reduction. The more modern .030" constriction for full choke with modern shells gives about an 8% reduction. You can figure these percentages for any size you desire, just remember they are figured from the diameter Sq'd thus for a 20 gauge using modern 8% constriction √(.615� x 92%)=.590" or .025" constriction.

Incidentally for the original poster a 13 gauge bore is undersized for a 12 an 11 gauge is overbore.