doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Early days of England's best gunmakers

I believe most makers worked hard to earn a Royal seal from someone if not the King then a Earl or Duke,whatever. If Purdey had a Royal seal from the King and the gun was built by Scott I'm sure Scott whould have let the world know. There were a few great lock makers and I would have no problem findeing their locks on a best from another company. I know more than a few folks purchased Whitworth Tubes from BSA to finish and use in their guns.

Pre Trades Descriptions Act there was a lot more licence with terminology. However, remember that most gunmakers were exactly that - gun makers. The man whose name appears on the Teade label - e.g. Thomas Boss, when he set up on his own cannot have been expected to actually action, stock barrel, regulate and finish every gun he sold with his own two hands. He employed people to do this for him, though almost certainly still worked at the bench himself. Some of tose people were 'on the books' and some were 'in the trade'.

It was not really until the early 20th century that the ubiquity of the easily recognised 'Trade models' really became evident the length and breadth of the country.

If you wanted a best gun, you went to aman who could be trusted to provide you with one. The aristocracy generally left 'Trade matters' to the Trade. They just wanted the gun to look perfect, balance beautifully and shoot wonderfully. The gun maker 'made it so'. I'm sure lord Ripon never gave athought to who the lockmaker was that fitted his Purdeys.

I think what you're talking about happened in the Edwardian age.

Consider Holland and Holland. They commenced selling guns around 1835. Their factory produced its first gun around 1890. Where do you suppose the guns for the first 55 years came from? What does pre-1890 advertising say about H&H as a gunmaker?

Way back when, there was no gun trade - anywhere (revolting thought, I know, but bear with me). The concept of gun technology became known, along with the formulation of black powder. Some few of the most creative craftsmen of the time taught themselves to make guns. They obviously did the whole enchalada. With each generation, guns got better and demand grew. To meet the growing demand, shops expanded and guilds were formed to protect the commerce. By the time guilds form, a trade is usually starting to specialize. Specilization promotes higher standards and higher production; first barrels and then locks for the now developing gun trade. Craftsmen find niches where they can prosper beyond working "on the books" in a single shop and become tradesmen. As the trade matured, many business models (of course, the men at the time were not aware they were working to a model) were tried with varying degrees of success. Classic master and workmen small shops faded early. Larger shops/small factories have shown the most staying power. Large factories, like Webley and Scott, had their hayday and have now faded.

I find it wonderful fun to unravel bits and pieces of this mystery. I fully believe that best guns can come with any name on them. The issue is not being shop made, rather quality control. Remember that guns were always made to a price point. Until the customer was willing to committ sufficient money, he got less than best.

Kinda like there are Ford Mustangs and then there are Shelby's

Now this answers my question. Apparantly it was not uncommon in 19th century England to use the term gun maker or manufacturer even if one only supplied a custom ordered and high spec'd finished gun from elsewhere up to that point in time. Sure took a lot of replies to just say this.

Your original question was not about Holland and Holland...each English gunmaker has their own history.

Only most recently has William Evans made guns. BUT, really big BUT, 'ole William was one of the best at making sure his customers got their money's worth and what they wanted/needed. His customer service was second to nobody!! Mostly, his guns came from W&S. I believe he opened (from Purdey's) about 1885 and is CIB.

On the other hand, Charles Hellis appears to have both made guns and bought in guns. Purdey's always made guns and bought in a few as an experiment in graded guns. Boss always made guns and doesn't appear to have bought in or dabbled in graded pieces. Plenty more examples in both directions and most in betwixt.

Holland certainly didn't have manufacturing facilities in the 1800's but by 1850 he had employees, including William Froome. Exactly who was suppling what on the early guns was unknown (prior to 1880), but the fit, finish and regulation were impeccable. So is a manufacturer someone who makes the part or someone who is able to finish and deliver a reliable product time after time.

It was my understanding that in the early years Holland was in the same strip of shops as all the Mantons and purchased many of his parts from that group of makers.