doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Another LC Smith Behemoth - Will it Digest Steel?

I seem to stumble across these heavy Grade 2 10s in twos and threes. I have another one here, SN 31597 weighs 10lb so also an 8ga action, with 32" damascus bbls that measure .790 id and .865 od min, with no choke in r and about 15 thou in left. The min wall at the forcing cone/chamber junction is roughly .400!

It has the wildest stock repair I have every seen. A full 3" section of wood was cut from the wrist (from just behind the guard to just in front of the pg cap) and a new piece of wood was transplanted (I can't say spliced because they are butt joints.) There is an angled screw through the PG cap going up into the new piece of wood. Haven't taken it apart yet to see what holds the other end in place, aside from the trigger gaurd tang.

I bought this thing cheap so I am thinking of shooting steel through it and if the ends of the bbls fly off, so be it. If it can't take it then it's just a boat anchor as who the heck wants a 10 lb gun for anything other than waterfowl. I figure with about 30 thou plus of min wall and lots of room for the steel shot exiting the muzzles, this old gun might get through a season or two.

Has anyone actually written anything scientific about shooting steel in lightly choked damascus bbls? It's supposed to be as good or better than early steel bbls, in terms of rupture. How about anecdotal evidence?

I have no issues with shooting sound Damascus but the popular steel loads generate some very very high pressures. That is the real problem to be concerned about.

Are the pressures publicized anywhere? If that's the only issue, I can get around it by reloading. I thought the main problem was bulging/stretching and eventual separation at the chokes.

Shoot those big duck loads through a Smith and you'll likely split what's left of the stock head. Hope you have a parts gun handy.

In any old gun with damascus barrels the consenses seems to be not to go higher than 8,000 psi. The steel loads are a lot higher, and IMO I wouldn't take the chance on my well being on shooting steel through it. Definetly wasn't made for it.

Shoot Bismuth and save the gun for the long haul. A few short 10 reloads would make that gun a long range killer that will open up eyes for those who think that the 10 is dead.

I would not shoot modern steel in it. I like all my parts where they are and see no need to temp fate. Fingers, eyes and nose. Current factory pressures are too close to twice the pressure that gun was made to shoot and it is about 100 years old. Lot to ask of 100 year old steel to handle that much pressure. If it fails, you will be real close to the failure. Like most of us you still like your fingers, eyes and nose, right? Shoot lower pressure loads and you will enjoy it more and so will your gun.

I agree with the bismuth recommendation. That's what I use in my heavy Scott 10. I use two wraps of watercolor paper to make a shot cup that tightens the pattern considerably in my cylinder bore gun.

For that matter, use black powder as well and shoot it like it deserves to be shot. It is way more fun than anything else you can do with it.

Brent

You may wish to pass such gun on to someone who is more likely to restore it for use in it's designed pressure range, with projectiles suited to it's very soft bbls.

What you are proposing is sort of a demolition derby, with you on the recieving end of the flying parts.

Ten pounds is not actually a 'heavy' Ten. The heavies, designed for all day pounding with modern 3 1/2" Nitro's, are of at least twelve pounds, and can go up to fifteen in some Euro-specimens. These specimens have 'modern' steel recievers and bbls, engineered to withstand the repeated firings -- and weighted enuff for a gunner to withstand the cumulative recoil.

Now, there are GREAT modern Big Tens that weigh a very well balanced ten pounds that have the all the strength needed to take the pressures [which are actually moderate, compared to say..a 3 1/2" twelve Roman candle]. The Berretta Ten's, the Neumann's of the 1960's[marked imported by Silvers and Sons, San Francisco], the AYA Light Ten [they also made a twelve pounder], the Ugartechea Ten, quite a few light Euro's of lesser known Continental makers, and English guns -- all can be had in the 3 1/2" Ten chambering.

These are generally delightful guns, well stocked and well made of modern material. While it was not uncommon to pick them up for 400-600 dollars, or as low as 200$ for a good Spanish make back in the Days of Doublegun Ignorance, it ain't so bluidy likely now, myte. But those prices allowed me to play with them and pass them on, so I was able to form an opinion or two. I don't have time to relate all that now, but if you can ressurect my past posts there is prolly more than one screed on the subject.

I know y'r having fun with the Tens, so am encouraging you to continue, to handload to the gun, to find the Doublegun Magazine Articles on the loads and chambers and suitable guns for them, and to continue delving into the great satisfactions of the Grand Morning Booms rolling out over the River and Marsh.

However, even if the vintage and abused Damascus guns are there for the owners wishes, someday the doublegun masses will decide that a vintage Ten is a MUST!!! Then the restorations and resurrections and PRICES will cause one to reflect on past actions with some wish, to have done otherwise than one did. At the least, load or buy low pressure Bismuth for the old-timers.

I used to shoot up my leftover factory Ten steel shells on the Clays and skeet at the end of the season. I will assure you that such activity is tolerable and kinda fun in a modern ten pound gun. However, I also kinda regret the misuse. There are good alternative loads or alternative guns for such activity. It's easy enuff to track down an inexpensive used American Arms [Spanish] 26" bbl'd Ten in a camo or phosphate 'Parkerized' finish pretty cheaply.

Now THERE is a beater utility double that will happily gobble the cheapest, hardest economy steel load you can toss thru it. Happy hunting.

You've gotten some great advice above!

To directly answer your question, there IS evidence showing that SOME, SOUND Damascus and steel barrels of the era had very comparable strengths. Oscar Gaddy and Harry Collins donated Damascus and steel Parker barrels for testing to destruction, by Sherman Bell and Tom Armbrust. Both bbl sets were made in the same year, in the late 1890s.

The result astonished just about everyone: Both digested increasingly higher pressure loads, finally failing at nearly equal gas pressures -- about 30,000 psi! Both have been almost-fully analyzed by Zircon for the vintage barrel strength project (one final test is still underway).

Full info will be published when the project is finished. I will comment now that: 1) observable cyclic fatigue damage began at much lower gas pressure than 30,000 psi, but nonetheless each bbl was plenty strong. 2) Metallurgical failure mechanisms were different; this documents and explains some long-held opinions.

Importantly, these were exactly two cases, one of each, and CANNOT be extrapolated to broader conclusions.

The "common denamenator" seems to be proof >=1200bar, gradually tapering choke of <= Mod, and brazed barrels. Chrome plating of bore also comes in handy. Using guns with ammo they were never designed for is IMO , but it's your call.