doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Poser about the MO of "unround" small shot?

Exactly what degree and type of shot deformation contributes to dispersion (larger pattern) and/or "fliers" (random and useless trajectory falling outside a useful fringe) and/or "stringing" (falling behind the major mass of shot)? I ask because I want to reload a couple of lbs of small shot reclaimed from trap range for skeet.

After tumbling this stuff and getting the oxide coating off, several things come to mind which apparently didn't before. First there are no half-round or flattened shot from friction with bore most probably because our modern trap shooter uses petaled shot cups in factory fodder and reloads. "Dimpling" (impression of one shot on another caused by inertial setback at moment of discharge)is prevalent but some of the shot remains round and undimpled which I and my pair of pliers take to indicate a harder shot with a high antimony content. The few pellets of steel, copper plate and larger shot (#6,5) which I found (How'd that get in there?) all maintain their ideal spherical condition. The presumably softer shot is dimpled one to four times presumably depending on it's location in the charge (shot in the middle of the charge has more "neighbors").

I know a lot is made of "plomb disco" (flattened shot) and cubic shot for dispersion at skeet ranges. Given that small shot dimpled four times approximates the shape of a cube and assuming some salutary result in skeet pattern from that "shape", I would think that a second and possibly subsequent reloadings (altho impracticable) would tend to "homogenize" deformity (can't control position of shot in the charge) and maximize dispersion/other? What do you think?

I'm interested on this occasion only in the probable result of additional (second-time-around) setback dimpling; I understand that post wads and various exotic additions to the charge (compartmenting vanes, home-made X-spreaders, tilted card wads and even sody straws) are thought to be conducive to dispersion and have tried most of them. Being very lazy, I haven't gone to the trouble of deforming shot outside the gun. Is there really a vast difference between the "english" placed on soft round shot by deformation on discharge vs. pounding/scraping it flat? If, as I speculate, I'll get a higher % of "regular" golf-balls on second loading and firing, won't the behavior of the entire charge be more consistent in the sense of encouraging a "mass norm" to trajectories? Silly I know but your thoughts welcome.

jack

Bre'r rabbit, please don't throw me in that briar patch. Assuming Fred Kimble invented choke boring ca. 1880, we have spent 128 years not knowing exactly how a load will perform in a given gun until it is patterned. My assumption has been that teardrop shaped shot would give the tightest patterns, flattened shot would would not give any consistent pattern and round shot should react to the choke the best. The dimpling on a golf ball is present to eliminate the english or waffling of a spinning sphere moving at high speed. If shot does not spin leaving the muzzle then the rounder the better. The only example I can offer is that if I kick a soccer ball dead center and with great force it will not spin, it will dance like a hula girl. A soccer ball is round but has facets. The same ball kicked with moderate spin flies straight. Kick the ball on the right side it curves left visa versa. Peter

Well, Peter, for your eyes at least, the result of one round of skeet this morning with the reclaimed shot. First it loaded high into the crimp because of the irregular shapes not meshing like round. Despite the appearance of high volume, I doubt if it was a full ounce as it would also shortchange the bushing on wgt. for same reason. Lots of unburnt powder flakes in the tubes also. Second, breaks on close incomers on the ends and also the 7 outgoer can be easily incinerated even with a normal skeet pattern but I got some "communion wafer" breaks on these altho not quite so obvious on 7 low. Some two/three piece breaks across the middle also which is not my usual output. I think the pattern was patchy. Overall, I was not happy with this stuff. Having some second thoughts about this shot even for skeet. Given the use of cubic shot in competition skeet, I'm wondering what's different.

jack

rabbit, my shooting partner and I have shot several hundred lbs.each, of reclaimed shot on sporting clays. We have both discussed it and neither of us could tell any difference between rc and new shot, magnum no less. Of course, we were not taking 50 yard shots.

Also used quite a bit of shot made of wheel weights and again, could tell no difference. We were not shooting tournaments with either.

Lenard

Lenard, I certainly wasn't making long yardage shots either. Just my first impressions on shooting a box+. How about the volume:wgt. issue? Did you adjust your bushing to yield a higher volume to get the shot wgt. you wanted? I'm tempted to do so and put it up next time in a 1 1/8 oz. wad.

jack

Jack, I have not shot sporting since '01. So it was before that and I believe we were doing like everyone else in those days, using 1 1/8.

We never adjusted anything or even remotely tried to figure out the weight/volume, except what came through the shot bushing. We shot quite a few targets in the 35-40 yard range and felt we broke what we deserved.

Although with all the shooting we did, I would not try and attempt to convince anyone it performs the same as Magnum shot. We were both shooting in the high 80's low 90's in those days, so we should know if the shot was at fault.

Good that you wouldn't attempt that, Lenard, as in my opinion it won't (and I don't know why I'd want it to for skeet). I've broke 60 exactly once at "sporting" and my "reclaimed" shot unsorted as to size, hardness, roundness, etc. Of course,there are presentations and presentations and shot and shot. We may be approaching the elephant from opposite ends. As long as your end smells OK, I'm good with it.

jack

It might be interesting if we could produce perfectly tear drop shaped shot. The reason is that this shape has 1/50th the drag of round forms.
Pete the Aero Engineer

Yes, and if we could give them a NACA section and get em all oriented correctly, maybe they'd rise to trap targets for the chronically muzzle-depressed. I think I introduced some bad juju (light shot charge) in the loading process. Powder didn't burn well and Nitro 100 is about as fast as they come with the exception of Bullseye. Anyway, I observed (admittedly impressionistically and sadly dependent on my shooting) what I observed. It has made me think that the alleged benefits of deformed shot at skeet range may be at best only allegations and at worst malarkey. Also deformation at setback has to be the reason that chilled shot is crap for trap. Amazing the percentage of it in my little sample gathered at a trap range. Matter of economy no doubt.

jack

Jack, couldn't it be that after "seeing" all the deformities you are getting a sort of
inverse "placebo" effect on your shooting?

JC