doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com pre & post Fulton Smith guns (photo rich)

Snowed in here today. We are supposed to get almost 20-inches at this rate (if it keeps going until tomorrow morning)...



So... I'm stuck at home today. My 23-year old 4x4 Dodge truck is at the shop (typical old vehicle problems, it's a shame I'm so cheap) and what I have left to drive is no-match for anything like this. Accordingly, I decided to read-up on a few things...



This book is out of print now and while never cheap, copies of it are still prohibitively expensive (IMHO) for the average Joe ($350 per copy?). I finally found my somewhat-foxed (w/a slight tear on the back of the cover) copy in the "used" book world for significantly less than that, but... unless someone is really motivated to study these guns, it's unlikely that many folks are buying the presently available "uncirculated" versions at that price. This effectively keeps the better information about these guns out of the usual gun-crowd hands. Hopefully I'm not violating anything by posting these photographic excerpts, but here we go:



Above is an circa 1895 Grade 1 LC Smith. Pay close attention to the shape of the bottom of the receiver, the single screw in the trigger-guard and the flattened screwheads (Syracuse & transitional guns have two screws on their lower tangs).



This is likely to be an early 1892 Quality 2 gun that looks strikingly like my late '91 Quality 1 gun. Compare it to the 1895 Grade 1 gun above. Note the shape of the bolsters on bottom of the receiver (what gorgeous case colors remaining(!), I wish my gun looked half this good) but even by '92 the screw head on the lock-plate appears to have been flattened. In Houchin's book, the transitional guns are counted in with the Syracuse production numbers (up until 1892). Production at Fulton begins in 1890, making for 3-years of transitional-gun production there ('90, '91 & '92).






My 1891 Quality 1 gun (above) at the range yesterday. Note the two rounded screws in the trigger-guard. Quality 1 guns were never made in Syracuse, only at Fulton. Quality 2 was the entry-level for Syracuse guns in those days. I have, however, seen an exceedingly-plain Quality 2 action that perhaps hints at what was to come...





I believe this above gun was dated (by serial number) to be 1888 or '89? (all the current owner has now is the stripped action, as he parted the rest of the gun out). Below is photography I "snipped" from an online advert for an 1890 Quality 1 gun:





Note the square barrel lug and the clearly pronounced bolsters on the bottom of the frame (all the Syracuse guns had that square lug). By 1891, however, the barrel lug had been rounded at the front. The basic line engraving pattern on this action is exactly the same as that 1889 Syracuse "mystery" action and...on my 1891 gun, but this one has/had "Twist" barrels (and a badly cracked stock, with what looks to be a replacement forend).

What we're all used-to (well, most of us anyway, and in a much more-worn condition)...

[img]http://i.imgur.com/cdqNE1Eh.jpg[/img]

(why the above photograph won't display properly is beyond me).


Deep into the "weeds", I know. More to follow.

While Houchin's book is a monumental work, and we owe him greatly for that, the way the layout people stretched or squeezed digital images to fit the available space on the page drives me crazy. Col. Brophy's book is easier on the visual synapses.

Interesting! I either had Brophy's book (or I got it from the library) and my memory of it was that it was poorly laid-out. I found it to be confusing, frankly. Thank-God he did write it or otherwise all of the raw paper data (from when Marlin was tearing things down at Fulton) would have been lost (if I remember all of that correctly). Perhaps I need to re-examine it?

Still snowing here this morning, so digging out will have to wait. My wife estimates that we've received at least 24-inches in the last 36-hours here.

Information on the higher grades of LC Smith guns isn't hard to find. The elaborate (& accordingly expensive) Deluxe, A-3s, Crowns, and Monograms have been well-covered, and in multiple publications over the years. Because of the number of variants produced (and with the grade name changes after the Hunter Brothers took over {from Lyman Cornelius Smith} in 1890, and then again in 1913) it can still be confusing, but because of the fanfare that usually accompanied each change of the higher-end gun model names, that is relatively easy to track. Where things become muddled is in the succession of the entry-level guns over the early years at Fulton, New York. I am open to correction here, but I have it thus: entry level for the Syracuse "Style" of Hammerless LC Smiths (produced from 1886 to ~1889) were the Quality 2 guns (priced at $80 in the late 1880s). Starting in 1890 at Fulton, the Quality 1 gun was introduced by the Hunter Brothers as their entry level model ($60), but this was a transitional gun in so-many ways. Arguably, Hunter Arms was using up actions, barrels, stocks, and other supplies brought over from the last of the guns and parts produced for assembly in Syracuse. Also, during this period (& even before in Syracuse) almost all the guns were made with braided-steel tubes. Laminated Steel, Three-Iron Damascus, Two-Iron Damascus, Single-Iron (Stub) Damascus, and Plain Twist Steel were the options. Fluid steel likely began to appear in the middle 1890s, but it was a special order item.

At sometime in 1892 (late?), the Quality 1 guns became No. 1 guns and the Syracuse "Style" of hammerless guns ended. The engraving was picked-up a little in the center of the lock-plate, but the action was flattened on the bottom (w/no bolsters) and the screw heads were also flattened (not rounded like the earlier Syracuse line of guns). The price remained at $60 ($75 w/ejectors, available for the first time). In 1895, the No. 0 Grade was introduced, with a few more changes to cut down on the amount of work (& time) invested in it's making to control costs (like one screw in the lower stock tang, not two as before). Other than some line-engraving on the lock-plates (on the very early versions) this model looked very-much like the 00 Grade and the Field Grade guns that came after it, and was priced at $47 per copy ($60 w/ejectors). This was done without much fanfare, obviously, which is interesting because the Hunter Brothers sold way-more (orders of magnitude more) of the entry-level guns than they ever did of the higher grades. Referred to as the "Regular Grade" in initial advertising, sculpting of the action became very minimalist, with no bolsters or any other embellishments. In 1898, further "refinements" were made to control costs and the 00 Grade guns were introduced at $25 a copy ($50 w/ejectors). The 00 Grade was described as the "workhorse" of the line at Fulton, produced only in 12-gauge initially. It was during this period that fluid steel became the more-common barrel material used.

In 1913, all the grades and models were renamed by Hunter Arms (the 00 Grade became the Field Grade, the 0-Grade became the Ideal Grade, the No. 1 became the Trap Grade, etc.) and several processes seem to have been changed then as well (to better suit mass-production). It has been speculated that during this period, American walnut was substituted for English walnut in the stocks of the lower-end guns. Fit and finish seems to have suffered a little as well, as compared to the earlier guns. The higher grade guns were still elaborately engraved (many were still inlaid with silver & gold) and fitted with lovely, highly-figured wood. The era of braided-steel tubes ended (in 1920) with Armour Steel and even Sir Joseph Whitworth fluid steel tubes being available in all the guns. The rest, as they say, is history, and fairly well-documented at that. Field grade guns were produced in incredible numbers, from 1913 to 1950. The base price was $25 in 1913 and $99 in 1950 (w/ejectors and other specialty items available all along the way for an additional cost). Total production for Field Grade guns is listed at 195,205 in Houchin's book.

I'd like to dedicate these little LC Smith missives of mine to Francis Marion (AKA Run-with-the Fox). You'll be missed Foxy.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/thedailynews/name/francis-morin-obituary?id=53023005

Lloyd in your first set of 4 pictures, that is not an 1895 gun it is from after 1907. The picture showing the lock plates shows two screws in the left lock plate, that is a Featherweight frame. the picture of the bottom of receiver the through lug is shorter again that of a Featherweight frame.
All Syracuse L.C. Smith's had the squared rectangular lug and a few of the very early Fulton guns in the low 30000 serial numbers. All Syracuse guns had rounded breech balls compared to the Fulton slanted breech balls. The large convex ribs on the Syracuse guns carried over again to the very early Fulton guns and then to some that had the narrow convex ribs. Syracuse guns did not have ejectors. All barrels were different types of Damascus but none that I have seen had Laminate Steel barrels. All stocks were of European walnut. Barrels were all 30 or 32" made in 3 weight, Medium, Heavy and Extra Heavy in 10 and 12 gauge shown in catalogs of that time, but they did make a few 8 gauge hammer and hammerless guns that were not in catalogs.
Houchins did a great job on his book and had a lot of help in doing so. There are mistakes and if you have studied the Syracuse line and the early Fulton line you will be able to pick them up.
Another great book is from Dr. James Stubbendieck our Records keeper, "L.C. Smith Production Records" available through Amazon, he composed a soft cover book covering all the grades of the Fulton line and gives great detail of what was available to each gun, years made, production numbers etc,

So, did I miss that RWTF has gone ahead?
Chief

Yeah Chief, we heard yesterday from Lima Papa that Foxy had passed last September. Sad news here.

Well damn, just that. I was thinking that might be the case, he hadn't been here for awhile. A "one off" in a good way!

?????

Thanks David, yeah I did see later that the No. 1 gun pix was a featherweight (the 2nd screw on the lock-plate is pretty obvious). Mea Culpa! I got caught-up in writing all the rest of it.

The breechball differences are pretty significant as well, but the bottoms of the actions are the most visual clue (at least for me). The ribs are interesting to me as well. "Large and Convex" about covers it, and I associate it almost exclusively with Smith guns (I don't believe I've ever seen anything quite like it on other standard doubles). As far as the Laminated Steel tubes go, they're clearly listed in the early advertising for the Fulton guns but mine is the only one I've ever run across that has them, most do seem to have 2 and 3-bar Damascus. Syracuse hammerless production was really limited (way less than I would have guessed) and it really becomes a numbers game after 1913 (when you compare production from before that time to the big numbers after). My "transitional" Quality 1 gun was easily the least-produced, arguably "graded" gun, with only 3-years of production (if you ignore the very-early 3-barrel stuff) and it's no wonder I've never run-across one before. I also now see that the Quality 1 guns (with the Fulton-designed flat-bottomed actions) continued until 1895-6. As you suggest, I probably should pony-up for Mr. Stubbendieck's latest publication to further clarify my understanding of these things. My focus here was on the lower-grade guns, but I know that there were some confusing product options in the middle grades as well.