doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lead ban in Minnesota?

So here we be.

You can have an argument that has merit. I think that no tox for waterfowl has that. Ducks are not Pheasants, are not Grouse, are not targets. Different needs as far as protecting anything related. The game, the environment, the kiddies. To ban lead for upland hunting is not necessary, period. The upland bird feeds wholly different than waterfowl. Lead is very stable and naturally present in quantity in a lot of places. Just don't pulverize it or vaporize and breath it you'll be fine. It will just lie there. And if you eat a bit I'm sure you'll survive it unharmed!

Why then are the only carrion eaters that get airplay Eagles? Do not Crows and Vultures eat gut piles? Are they suffering?

The problem is that once an idea, which might have merit takes hold someone with an agenda will pick up the ball so to speak and push forward, with their own agenda. Someone like the aforementioned Jen.

Chief

Ted--Sounds like MN is continuing to march in the direction suggested by their Nontox Advisory Committee a number of years ago. Forcing ranges to go nontox makes no sense at all . . . unless they're dropping shot into a wetland or something like that. As someone previously said, that lead isn't going anywhere, and birds are unlikely to ingest it.

If you Sotans are forced to turn in your lead shot, I'm sure we can round up neighbors from WI, IA, and the Dakotas who will at least drive over and pay you for it.

Chief: Unlike eagles, crows and vultures don't have fan clubs. We now have eagles a lot of places where we hadn't had them for a long time. Their recovery is a real success story for wildlife management. Between banning DDT and the nontox requirement for waterfowl hunting, we've pretty much solved the eagle problem. If you see a dead deer along a road in Wisconsin, you're likely to find an eagle cleaning it up. During gun deer season in particular, it's possible that some of those eagles will ingest bullet fragments from deer that were wounded by hunters but not recovered. But I don't think that's a major concern. Far less likely, I think, that an eagle is very likely to feast on a crippled pheasant or grouse and ingest lead shot as a result.

Larry, I think you have to go back to the question of whether lead ingested from other non-waterfowl game has a population level effect on eagles. It is unquestionable that gutpile lead kills eagles. That's not debatable. What is important is whether that has a significant effect on abundances and densities. Clearly, eagle populations have been dramatically successful at increasing in the face of lead-laced carcasses. That is the key point.

Everything is debatable.

Unless, it is a leftist, cherished, demigod, say, a wind turbine, or, a thousand of them. It is undebatable, with them, to point out the hypocrisy of the things chopping up birds of any and all descriptions, including birds of prey, while they fetter about, wringing their hands over all things lead.

Those are the only things that are “undebatable.

Best,
Ted

Ted, you've lost your grip on reality, sadly.

6:30 and you are already well into your cups of bitterness.

Only with the idiots.

Best,
Ted

Update! Pure copper is on the approved no tox list. Well pure copper plus a corrosion inhibitor that is. Look here, https://www.fws.gov/story/2022-04/nontoxic-shot-regulations-hunting-waterfowl-and-coots-us. and here, https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/nontoxic.html.

Representing pure copper shot in various size shot, 12 and 20. Not for the classics though. https://europarm.fr/fr/store/sscategorie2-955-Cartouches-grenaille-sans-plomb-bourre-jupe?store_products=1&svc_20%5B%5D=41. If you can get them here...

Hi Col. Of course crows and vultures are subject to lead poisoning. You're correct in that they do not have a following. Now California Condors now they have some great P.R. folks!

To Brent's point. The total population of crows, vultures and eagles seam to be taking it, lead, in stride.

Chief

Actually, crow populations are really tumbling around here. In fact the decline has been stunning. I doubt it has anything to do with lead, however. More likely West Nile.

In any event, turn the discussion of nontox back to population dynamics, where it belongs. The effect of nontox on waterfowl populations was huge. Arguing about whether eagles die because of gutpiles is a losing argument by itself. They do. It just does not matter in the larger scheme of things.

Brent, No shortage here, want a few? They'll bounce back.

In case you missed it I think no tox for waterfowl has a good case going. In fact my whole dissatisfaction with the get the lead out movement has much more to do with unnecessary restrictions that you, yourself just alluded to. Is lead causing a decline in populations other than waterfowl. Or are those populations coping. I think they are.

Then you have the anti shooting/hunting crusaders that have found some leverage in our government. I truly believe that even if the perfect no tox alternative to lead is produced that agenda will remain active.

Chief